Is an end to the gender debate possible? Can the continuing conflict between the transgender and classic transsexuals ever be settled? Consider the positions:
Transgender…
On the one hand is the transgender. That group, the transgender, is made up of every possible brand and combination of gender variance. It is an umbrella term that captures everyone from the casual crossdresser to the intense classic transsexual. The transgender believe in a gender spectrum, i.e. that everyone who in any way presents or identifies as something other than their natal assigned gender are all alike, only lying on a gradient with that same casual crossdresser at one extreme and the intensely transsexual at the other…sometimes this is explained in terms of a statistical Bell curve. It is impossible to discuss transgender without also speaking of the GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender) movement…many, if not most of the transgender activist, are homosexual; some claim bisexuality. Almost all transgender feel some form of affinity with the GLB and, in general, subscribe to and support GLB political issues across the board.
The transgender do not generally believe in the gender binary, meaning they propose there are not just males and females but a whole range of genders that are partly male or partly female in varying degrees. The transgender see biological sex and gender as two entirely different things…typically, sex is between the legs; gender is between the ears. This group feels that it is entirely possible for one to be absolutely female, yet have a penis…while in no way being biologically intersexed. The transgender feel there is unquestionably no need to have Gender Reassignment Surgery (GRS) in order to align one’s body with their psychologically perceived sex/gender. In short, the transgender believe that all one has to do is present and act male/female in order to actually be male/female. And…there is an almost infinite variety of “partly male or partly female.”
Transgender ideology is such that they believe it is quite possible for an individual to realize quite late in life that they are actually not their natal-assigned sex/gender. This gender variance, as it’s called, can then be assuaged by transitioning. Transitioning, to the transgender, can range from having GRS to simply presenting as, or acting the part of, their target sex/gender. Transgender do not believe GRS is necessary in order to complete gender transition…or absolutely necessary at all.
The transgender believe that anyone who disagrees with their philosophies and definitions – primarily classic transsexuals but the mainstream as well – are haters, elitists, homophobic, transphobic, and separatists. They believe that anyone who is gender variant and of whom fall under their umbrellas should stay there for the betterment of their cause; they absolutely refuse to acknowledge classic transsexuality is different than other forms of gender variance.
The transgender life narrative is as varied as the spectrum they support with no defined, “in common” path or psychology.
Classic Transsexuality…
Classic transsexuality could not be more diametrically opposite with respect to transgenderism. Classic transsexuals believe they are singular and quite different that transgender. This group, classic transsexuals, does not believe that there is a gender spectrum. Intersex excepted, classic transsexuals believe in the gender binary, i.e. that there are only males and females. Again, with the exception of the biologically intersexed, this group believes that there is no gender gradient and that no person can have a sex/gender that is partly male or partly female, though they fully acknowledge that there are degrees of masculine behavior/interests in females and feminine behavior/interests in males exhibited by everyone. Classic transsexuals do not believe they lie on a gender gradient or Bell curve…they do believe that this gradient exists for the transgender, however. Many, me included, believe that classic transsexuals are predominately heterosexual though there are most definitely classic transsexuals who are gay/lesbian. However, gay and lesbian classic transsexuals do not first and foremost identify as gay or lesbian, but first and foremost as either male or female.
Classic transsexuals see sex and gender as synonymous terms, though they fully acknowledge that the transgender, by definition, have different sex/gender definitions germane to their construct. Classic transsexuals absolutely believe that GRS is imperative; it is the single trait that differentiate classic transsexuality from transvestism. Classic transsexuals certainly recognize there are those who have completely transitioned, including having GRS, later in life; those who have done so have the same narrative as those who completed transition at a younger age. Transitioning to classic transsexuals is absolutely not complete until GRS is performed.
Classic transsexuals believe that the transgender should lobby for whatever rights they feel they deserve, yet do not have…but do not believe that the issues of transgenderism parallel those of classic transsexuality. Classic transsexuals do not hate the transgender but very much object to being included under their umbrella. Classic transsexuals see this inclusion as an appropriation and colonization of their very being against their will…as being held captive in an organization in which they do not belong yet are powerless to escape from.
The narratives of the classic transsexuals are the same…in every instance. Classic transsexuals realize from very, very early childhood that they are different and not like other girls and boys…they are in the wrong body…and from the time they realized it is possible strive to have GRS in order to correct nature’s mistake.
So, with both side’s general position defined, is it possible for the gender debate to end? I think the answer is…YES, it is possible. However, I doubt it will, and here’s why.
The primary stumbling block in any peace between classic transsexuality and transgenderism is the issue of identity appropriation. The transgender consistently hold the position that “we are just like you”, i.e. classic transsexuality and transgenderism is basically the same thing, with classic transsexuality being part of the transgender umbrella and resting within a gender spectrum composed of every conceivable form of gender variance…none of which are completely male or completely female, but partly male and partly female. This is demeaning in the very worst of ways to classic transsexuals who see themselves as completely male or female, only requiring GRS to right a wrong. In other words, it is not classic transsexuals who are saying we are part of transgender, but the transgender who are saying classic transsexuals are a part of us.
No societal group has the right to appropriate and colonize another into its ranks should they not desire the annexation. Classic transsexuals do not desire annexation into the transgender. Classic transsexuals readily admit that transgender is different and respect their right to do as they choose; the transgender do not return that understanding.
It could be argued that, well, no one is forcing classic transsexuals to define as transgender…if classic transsexuals don’t define as transgender then fine, don’t. That seems reasonable on the face, but is quite absurd when taken a closer look at. Classic transsexuality is extremely rare. By nature, we are not activists. In fact, generally, classic transsexuals are quite reclusive, preferring to transition and then merge with the mainstream, living our lives out as any other man or woman might…the reality is that we already do not define as transgender. However, the transgender and their GLB supporters hold the spotlight. There are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of transgender and their GLB supporters. In comparison, there are only a few tens of thousands who are classic transsexuals. All of the gender activists are transgender. And, those activists, along with their multitudes of GLB supporters, routinely and habitually, as a matter of course, cultivate the mindset within the mainstream media spotlight that transgender includes classic transsexuality…there is never a mention by these activists of the fact that tens of thousands of pre and post op transsexuals are not transgender and reject their paradigm. The bottom line is that classic transsexuals are defined as transgender by the very transgender machine that invites us not to define as transgender should we choose not to. Catch 22 at its finest. As a noted transgender advocate once said: “There are those [classic transsexuals] who want to separate from the transgender movement…as if that is possible.”
The battle lines of the gender debate have long been drawn. The question is whether or not there is a solution to the debate? In fact, there is.
The solution is for the GLBT in general and the transgender specifically to recognize and publicly acknowledge that classic transsexuality is different than, and not a part of, transgender. Not better…just different.
That’s all it would take for the gender debate to end.
Classic transsexuals have no desire to constantly defend themselves from the rampant GLBT appropriation of our identity. As mentioned, it is not classic transsexuality that is trying to join the GLBT, but the GLBT that is prohibiting our disassociation from their group by not acknowledging our differences. Classic transsexuals keep saying we know who we are and we are not like the transgender; the transgender keeps saying we are just like you even though they obviously can’t know who we are…classic transsexuals are not saying to the transgender “would you please join our group”; the transgender are saying to classic transsexuals “we are not going allow you to leave ours.”
Until classic transsexuals are publicly differentiated from the transgender – by the transgender and the GLBT – there can and will not be any peace in the gender debate.
24 Comments
Amen!
“The solution is for the GLBT in general and the transgender specifically to recognize and publicly acknowledge that classic transsexuality is different than, and not a part of, transgender. Not better…just different.”
That sounds good in theory but cannot happen in reality. My reasoning is that the association has been made, not withing the GLB or the transgender movement themselves, but rather it has been made in the media and the public consience.
The ONLY way this split can be made is to bring it to the attention of the media. The public’s views are fashioned by the media and the only way to bring the changes you mention is for us to speak loudly and often in the hope that media are watching. If your expecting that a public statement be provided from the GLBT, then you are going to be waiting a very long time indeed.
We need more exposure on this issue. We need to keep knocking on the door until someone answers. It is a long and thankless task that we have embarked upon but it can be won. No war is ever won without first fighting and winning the individual battles. Our collective voices must be heard.
We must nag them constantly and repeatedly, and as any woman knows, sooner or later the men will either throw you out or capitulate.
Its that simple.
I just don’t believe in gender as it has been redefined by the GLBT. The whole concept is pure social theory and really has no place in the day to day world we all live in.
The gender preached by the TG is an equivocation; it rests on the assumption the audience is thinking about behavior and sex roles, and then twists that into an extrapolation that says behavior itself can go back and change reality.
Nobody believes this, not even the TG themselves. And that is my chief argument against the hardcore TG’s: they aren’t being honest about their own thoughts and feelings on the topic, yet they want everyone to accept these lies (as they are untruths in their own minds) as axiomatic fact. If you question their sincerity you are quickly branded a heretic, because they cannot afford to be exposed in this manner.
We are supposed to forget that biological sex exists, only remembering when it is convenient when one of these politician-theorists wants to make a point. It is about picking and choosing what you believe on any given day. It is the philosophy of nothing.
Biological reality is quite divorced from the Transgender, yet the Transgender still want alimony.
Susan, i haven’t seen it stated so clearly and succinctly before.
It adds another question i have for you onto the pile that already exist.
Why don’t you answer my emails, even after telling me to send them?
The historical reality of transgender is that it has it’s roots in Classic Transsexuals either being exposed in the media against their free will or through choice. The general public while astonished that such a person as a transsexual exists marvelled at the medical possibility of surgical correction. They understood the reality of the need of the transsexual to endure the necessary process. Perhaps some marvelled at the medical skill but they understood the situation. Some were excited by the possibilty and it is my belief that these are the individuals who now call themselves “transgender”.
Will this battle to establish separation ever be won? It’s a good question and the current situation is brilliantly laid before us here. From my perspective there can be no real separation until there is a breakthrough in science that clearly provides a medical diagnosis that is irefutable. Even then I fear it will be an uphill struggle.
The fallacy of chromosomes being a definitive measure of sex was established years ago. Yet in the nedia frenzy of Caster Semenya “experts” appeared on my television screen quoting xx and xy at the public. Reality does not sink in to either the media or the public that quickly.
That said, personally I will be challenging the TG dogma at everyy opportunity and I urge everyone to do the same, maybe then we can win this “war of independence”
[quote]
The transgender see biological sex and gender as two entirely different things…typically, sex is between the legs; gender is between the ears.
[/quote]
The two ARE different things… but not totally unrelated things.
Sex, statistically speaking (but not absolutely), is binary. Nature intends for it to be binary but does always succeed because human sexual development is a very complex process and more often than most realize things don’t go according to plan, even if only subtly.
One should never forget the intersexed do exist… and i think it’s likely it will be show eventually that transexualism has a biological basis or their are biological predispositions to it.
Gender is harder to define in a generally agreed upon manner.
For me gender is about how one’s natural inclinations and temperament match up with those of a specific biological sex and/or how well one fits or has affinity for the societal roles assigned to the sexes and thus affinity with a sex.
So gender is different from sex… but it IS influenced by (but not determined by) both by biological/hormonal factors going all the way back to in utero, as well as societal and experiential factors. And the degrees of all these things in any individual can vary quite a bit.
That inevitably gives rise to a sort of spectrum of gender feelings/identities as well as sexual identities.
It’s not a simple one dimensional scale, because many different factors/etiologies are involved, but it still gives normal distribution. And as expected most people’s gender does align reasonably well with their physical sex.
The thing is with all those factors involved, a person can be at different places in different dimensions.
They can be very high on dimension and low on another.
That explains the very female vibing assimilated happy non-op, and the happy masculine vibing post-op who really did need surgery.
This does not say all T*s are basically the same … but it’s more complex than 2 or 3 buckets… The people who need surgery to feel complete and be fully functional human beings are not the same those, who don’t… but socially either can be anywhere in the assimilation dimension
The complexity of his reality does not politically serve those at the various extremes of different dimensions. The public can’t really grasp one’s sexual identity matching up with one’s physical sex or one’s gender identity because it is so far out from their experience of life…
So different groups push to have the view of thing that favors them most accepted… and fervently believe they are right because that is THEIR experience and most not at the extremes tend to stay quiet.
Unfortunately in the end numbers tend to matter in terms of influencing public opinion.
Excellent post, elucidating the issues clearly.
And with just about enough contradictions and disclaimers to be accurate.
e.g. “There are only 2 sexes (statistically speaking)”
I would say that the 2-sex model is an excellent APPROXIMATION. But there are some where it doesn’t apply. To say “there are only 2 sexes” is, in the main true. But we can’t ignore the exceptions, it really is a spectrum….
for a minority.
Put me down as 98% with the TS, and 2% with the TG models. The truth is somewhere in between, just far more like the TS than TG model.
God save us from armchair theologians, social scientists and sexperts.
In the end it all comes down to this, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it’s probably a duck and will be treated as such.
….and to 98% of the world that is all that will ever count.
Leigh;
I could not possibly agree more.
I’m getting tired and frustrated with all the pseudolectuals among us. They sound like TG sympathizers to me. Oh, Leigh, you left out “if it f**** like a duck…” LOL! EDITED 09-26-09 SA-ET
I had a typo (or rather a missed NOT) that changed the sense of a sentence.
It should have read:
{quote]
The public can’t really grasp one’s sexual identity NOT matching up with one’s physical sex or one’s gender identity because it is so far out from their experience of life…[/quote]
BTW Zoe it seems a liberal and conservative can agree on some things!
Why do certain people always bring it back to “gender” and “gender identity”? These are meaningless terms.
Karen, what the public cannot grasp is the half measures, the TG’s who claim to be women yet have not had SRS. THAT they neither understand nor tolerate. Frankly, I don’t either. At best it sounds delusional and worse like a downright lie. Sex and gender are not interchangeable and the poor state of education on the English language, and what words actually mean exacerbates the situation. Psuedo clever statements like “Gender is between the ears sex is between the legs” That is plain nonsense. Which sex you are is between the legs and between the ears. Which sex you are is also indicated by the clothes you wear. It is those objects that carry any reference to gender.
Aria Blue is right gender is meaningless to transexual. Gender identity is a lie concocted by someone who should have stuck to farming sheep.
Cassandra, I think you have it exactly right. Half-measures are not understood NOR are the “in your face”, marching, chanting TG’s. For example, I had a conversation with a male colleague (who knows my history) recently as he drove me to Dulles airport in DC on my way back home to Phoenix. He asked me about my social life and I told him about a recent date I had had and what a nice guy my date was. My friend got quiet and he said “Sara, are all “trans” (he stumbled on the word) people like you?” I asked him what he meant. He said, “You are quiet, work hard, never bring it up. I know, but I never think about you other than as another woman I work with.” No, I said, many are very vocal, always putting it forth when its not wanted and often use it as an excuse to legitimatize the fact they can’t function in the world because of discrimination. He said, “I relly hate it when people do that. No-one wants it forced right in their face”. No, they don’t I agreed. We said our good-byes, and I thought to myself if that man wasn’t married to an amazing woman with beautiful children I’d be all over him. LOL …
There it is. A real and practical example. It doesn’t get any clearer than that folks.
Sara …
What the public understands and accepts is often different from the reality of a situation.
People want things neat and simple. It’s more comfortable that way…
When that expectation clashes with reality it often sparks fear, hate and anger…
And I’m speaking FAR more generally that about T* stuff.
That’s the danger of requiring things to be simple and comfortable for “the general public” … It leave no room for those who are not… Not everybody will be comfortable, and it’s not matter of choice.
I certainly don’t want too feed into that. I can’t understand why anybody who changes sex would want to. It comes down to human rights in my few.
The public doesn’t need, or want, to know about this garbage in the first place. That’s why the positive value of ‘education’ on these issues is such a lie with regard to transsexual ’syndrome’. It serves only to benefit certain TG types, who see it as an opportunity to re-educate the public in TG fashion to obscure the truth.
You are exactly right, Tee-Gee education is propaganda.
anoldfriend said: “Tee-Gee education is propaganda”
This is true.
This is what is happening in the UK. Once upon a time, there was a group called Press For Change (PfC). This outfit did some extremely good work. However, it was infiltrated by socialists and transgenders. Some of these folks did not work for living (they were on benefits – state money), they could work full time on their agenda, and PfC got the ear of several politicians.
The end result was a Gender Recognition Act. It was mostly good. It also required married people to get divorced before recogition, and allows recognition without bottom surgery. I use the last phrase advisedly, as one of the primary architects of the Act, Stephen Whittle, uses that himself. He is a man, with a T>M background, and he recognises that surgery for T>M is a real problem. I say, though, it is NOT a real problem for T>F people. Bluntly, my feeling is that a pole is not a hole.
I think PfC crapped all over us by conflating transsexual and transgender.
Having said that, I will not say a bad word against Stephen, or any other person who worked to help us. Apart from the fact that I used to know many of these people (way back when) badmouthing is just not in my nature.
So where do I stand? Easy. A man is a man, a woman is a woman, and a chick with a dick is a man.
And the TG-Kool-Aid is creeping over the Pond. It is starting to seep into the zietgeist here, as well. It would be good to put up some form of block. What have you found that is effective?
Cheers,
Donna Patricia
You know that’s a good point- the TG/Gay politics thing is part and parcel of “socialist” politics here in the US. I put socialist in quotes because I feel the actual agenda is anything but what it claims to be. It is a blatant power grab wrapped in a shroud of “social justice”, and is really just more propaganda.
These people care about their own power and pocketbook, not the poor huddled masses. In this they are no different than their opponents, hence the gridlock we have.
TG and other “movements” represent a sort of destabilizing tool in the arsenal for these sorts of politicians. TG’s often complain of being a throw-away bargaining chip for the gays. But then, that is what their pre-crafted “movement” was always meant to be.
On a larger scale the gay movement itself is such a thing. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that TG “rights” are nothing more than an illusion. They were sold a bill of goods and it is going to be a rude awakening for them when the real agenda plays out.
Again, I am in full agreement with the majority of statements on this blog. My question is what is the most effective action available to us as individuals and as a group, if such a group does in fact exist.
Anne, please contact me via my web blog cassandraspeaks I may be able to help answer your question.
Cassandra, As requested I posted to your blog, ‘Cassandra Speaks’. Todate I have seen no response there, so I am re-posting here…………,,,,,,,,,,,I agree whole heartedly with the above post. I transitiioned in 1972/73. After a difficult recovery, I was able to re-enter mainstream society as a an attractive and fully functional young woman. I never ever looked back to the Gay Lesbian “Community” who had so soundly rejected me when I initially looked to them for succor, support or guidance.
Since that time, I have never seen, identifed or thought of myself as anything other than just an ordinary woman with a bit of an interesting past. About 3 years ago, I was disembarking from a Trans Atlantic cruise in Florida. While sharing a meal with my Life Partner, (the man I have lived with and loved for the past 8 years and to whom I am corrently engaged to be married), I ran across an article about a certain city manager who was being dismissed from his job because his intent to transition on the job was “outed” by the local press.
I found this somewhat unusual, as I had thought that by now with all the media hoopla, this issue must surely have been settleed. At least in California, I knew that would have been illegal.
To make a long story short I detoured to Philadelphia, the site of the TransGender Health Conference. I was overwelmed by the size and diversity of the TG Movement. I did meet some very interesting people including Jamison Greene and Shannon Garcia. There were also representatives from GLADD and HRC. Nevertheless, I was left with an uneasy feeling that somehow something was missing, or the focus was just not right.
While I have great empathy for CD’s and/or TG’s who for whatever reasons do what they do, I DO know that I am not like them or they like me, other than we are all human with our own sets of foibles, needs and desires.
I really do wish that some accomodation be made for them which would not impair or hinder the rights and ability of those that absolutely positively need SRS or GRS or corrective surgery to survive.
Like what? They never really say.
I just finished struggling through all the spin and namecalling in a recent post on Just Jennifer’s blog. The question that occured to me after reading what she had to say was this. What if a person with HBS cannot for financial, health, or other reasons, NOT transition completely by virtue of HRT and GRS. Is that person born say a genetic male, yet Hard wired with a female brain a transsexual or a transgender if they endeavor to express, live out or present according to those irresistable needs/desires/feelings?