By: Leigh Smith
I am just a little bit tired of all the whining and complaining coming from the transgender community. Well, truth to tell, I am actually down right sick of it.
To hear them tell, well, it sounds like a bunch of men stripped of their privileges as the dominant sex, removed to a lower level of the social order where they have to not only compete against other men for equal treatment, but also have to compete against the women they so want to emulate.
Oh, the inhumanity of it all…
Yes, these people are totally discriminated against in all areas of society. They are passed over for promotion, rebuked for their manor of dress, scorned for being themselves, abused by men, misunderstood by women, made fun of by children, not taken seriously by law makers, ridiculed by gay men, ignored by lesbian women, and a soto voce joke to the privileged society they once belonged too.
They get their panties in a knot over the slightest societal miscue, always quick to pick fights with the very people they are asking to be understood by, make demands for changes to accommodate their fantasy lives, think nothing of expecting women to make room for them in their most private places, and expect men to treat them as they would “any other woman” in spite of the fact that they conceal male genitalia…which they have no intention of losing.
Women, that is, natal women, have long endured all of these things. Less than 100 years ago in western society they never even had the power of the vote. In many eastern societies they are still treated as the property of men. They are passed over for promotion, discriminated against in employment, paid less than their male counterparts for the same work, and have less opportunity to rise in the ranks. They too are scorned for their manner of dress, are told they have to be slim, trim and athletic, are put down the moment they show any form of attitude toward men, are called bitch, ho, skank and other derogatory names. They are abused by men, have to fight for a place at the table with other women, often not promoted to positions of high office if competing with a male with the same qualifications, and reviled if they use their sex for any purpose other than making babies inside of marriage.
Yes, as the old saying goes, it’s still a man’s world. The ‘times they are a changin’ but make no mistake about it, the primal human male may relent during times of social calm but the moment that breaks down they will revert to their privilege at the top of the human food chain.
Women…know this. Women…are very smart creatures. Women…know they control men, but that they must never make it look that way. Women…know their place in the world, and they know it is at the side of their men folk, as partners and as equals, but never more than and never overtly.
As for the transgender, well…they don’t know what women know; instead they push their version of female and hope it will redefine a world the rest of us live in.
59 Comments
It’s a no brainer.
Women know women
Men know women
Like I said before your ether borne a woman or your not.
I found this post interesting… I always have a chuckle when someone makes some comment about how I had “male privilege. Growing up, and even in adulthood, people, particularly males, often sensed that there was something “wrong” with me. As I have described it, thy related to me as a “defective male.” When I transitioned, I discovered that I was treated better as a woman. They did not relate to me as an equal, but as less of an inferior. I can see how for those who spent most of their lives as successful men, the sudden change might come as a shock. Even in the unlikely situation that some of them are actually perceived as women, it must still be a shock to be treated as having lost privilege. As for the rest, I really find it amazing that they actually expect to be treated differently than they are.
I agree with the parts of this about how the transgender community “sounds like a bunch of men stripped of their privileges as the dominant sex, removed to a lower level of the social order where they have to not only compete against other men for equal treatment, but also have to compete against the women they so want to emulate,” but it’s pretty obvious that you’re a man who’s ultimate goal is to perpetuate the patriarchy and undermine feminism, given statements like “Women…are very smart creatures” (I mean “creatures?”) or the assertion, commonly given by you and other men, that women are really in control of things and “Women…know their place in the world, and they know it is at the side of their men folk, as partners and as equals, but never more than and never overtly.”
These are age-old misogynistic tropes given by heterosexual men, like you, to glorify patriarchal gender roles that subjugate women by patronizingly telling women that they’re really the ones in charge and that a “good” woman knows their place and is well-behaved and doesn’t try to shake things up or to “outdo” the men they belong “at the side of.”
This is the problem with you transgenderists; no matter how hard you try to distinguish yourselves from the other men, you’re always basing your identities on stereotypes of women.
Is “Leigh Smith” an online alias for Janice Raymond? That’s what this reads like. If Leigh really is an MTF, she wouldn’t be the first TS woman to wrap herself in radical feminism as some kind of “legitimizing” tactic, as if embracing extremist gender politics makes her “more” of a woman. (If that’s not the case, I’d love to hear an explanation for this article and its separatist and elitist tone.) But if I have guessed correctly, I have news for Leigh: sucking up to rad fems like a Civil War era black “Uncle Tomming” it up for “Massa” will not make you any more legitimate of a woman in their eyes than if you were the most flagrant shemale porn star.
How curious…Llorta accuses Leigh of undermining feminism, and Christine accuses her of embracing extreme feminism. Could it be possible that neither of them “get it?”
Radical feminism undermines mainstream feminism in the long run. It’s extremist viewpoints that give anti-feminists ammunition against the greater feminist cause. It is from these extreme views that critics of feminism are able to coin words like “femi-Nazi” and make them stick. It’s clearly you who doesn’t get it, Jennifer.
Nice attempt at a save. But no, there is not undermining of feminism going on here. Just simple reality. I get it without a problem.
LOL .. I am being simultaneously accused of being a “Radical Feminist” and “a man who’s ultimate goal is to perpetuate the patriarchy and undermine feminism” .. seems you just can’t win for losing in the gender debate. Depending on where you stand you can be all things to all people or none to any of them.
For clarification, and this response by its very nature is going to be a long winded one for which I apologize in advance, I have to tell you that I am not a big reader of books. I have never read Harry Benjamines “Transsexual Phenomena”, nor have I read Janice Raymond’s “Transsexual Empire”, Kate Bornstein’s “Gender Outlaw” or any number of books that deal with Transsexualism. In point of fact I have no idea who Janice Raymond is, her viewpoints, background, or qualifications, and to be perfectly truthful, I really don’t give a damn what they are. I have heard names like Zucker and Bailey bandied around, have never read their books either. I did have the displeasure of meeting Dr Anne Lawrence once a long time ago. Enough said about that encounter.
Some of you will be saying by now, “Just as I suspected, she doesn’t know what she is talking about.” Others may think that I am merely “uninformed” or “Uneducated” or even deluded, perhaps bigoted, transphobic, self loathing or many of the other epithets bandied about these days in the gender debate. Fact is, I don’t feel that one has to be read up on a subject in order to comment on it. Hands on practical experience trumps book learned education on most subjects, over and over again. The point is I cannot be accused of writing something that has the viewpoint of someone I don’t know.
Background has a large role in shaping a person. For instance, those that have been to college tend to be more read than those that haven’t, perhaps a little better at expressing themselves in the written word. For me, I was born to poor working class parents in the London suburbs of the UK. We brit’s tend to be a bit more outspoken than the yanks, often we will couch things in humor, other times let fly with both barrels and damn the torpedo’s.
My first known experience of myself that I can honestly remember without any shadow of a doubt was not in very early childhood. I am not saying it wasn’t there, I am admitting that if it was I probably didn’t know it was anything that other children didn’t feel, and even if I had done, well I am certain that I would not have belabored something that in the early 50’s was not something one could have done much about. Heck, even into the 70’s it was not exactly something you could openly discuss with your GP. They had a tendency to throw you out of their office back then. What I do know is that by the age of nine, I was dressing in secret, exploring my body and not liking what I saw. By the age of thirteen, I was actively spending entire days on the streets of London, and by eighteen, I was out to my parents. At twenty six I attended Charing Cross Hospital’s psychiatry clinic for transsexualism, now known as the Charing Cross Gender Clinic. You might say that’s late transition, and based on today’s standards it is, but back then 26 was pretty young to be tracked for SRS.
I transitioned in the space of one week. At the very first meeting at Charing, I was told to either start living and working as a woman, or “Never darken our doors again”! Oh yes back then you really had to be serious or you where flunked out. Whining was not tolerated, excuses were not acceptable. Going from construction worker to waitress is a bit of a mind trip. However, I did it and it was surprisingly easy. I had moved to a new town, and I quickly found new friends. I worked at a hotel as a silver service waitress. In just 3 months I was promoted to head waitress. Those that helped me the most were mainstream, often married with families, working class people that saw my plight as a medical condition. One such family with two teenage children, even took me into their home as a boarder, treated me like family and even introduced me to the local Merchant Seaman’s club where I was welcomed. Back then, I was not stealth, nor was my transition a secret, yet I was not ostracized by society, not discriminated against in employment, not told I was homosexual. In fact the town did have a gay club which I visited once or twice, and that was the ONLY place where I felt ostracized, ridiculed and totally out of place.
Fast forward to 1979, I Immigrated to America. The wheels the British National Health Service ground painfully slow and I felt to take my chances in America. I arrived penniless, clawed my way up through several menial jobs, done a little hooking which turned out to be not my thing, and started my own business with the help of a philanthropist. Funny thing, he never discriminated against me for being transsexual, even though he was totally aware of my background (except the hooking part), and he was a family man, he loaned me $15,000.00 which I invested in a small telephone answering service.
Long and the short of it I made SRS in 1985.
Now to the accusations.
What I write is my opinions based on my experiences as a woman of transsexual history. I do not have to read every book in the library to know what I have experienced. Yes I know that we all have similar stories, and yes we all try to be our best, but, I have NEVER asked anyone to accommodate me, never whined that I was discriminated against by the patriarchy, even though I have been, never called for laws to protect me, never brow beaten others to do what comes naturally to me. I do not believe that transgender and transsexual are the same thing.
Today’s transgender and transsexual focus is as a part of the GLB. That alone has caused them to be ostracized from the mainstream. They cannot be blamed for they know no better. They have become what their friends and peers expect them to be, one with the collective. In truth, the mainstream patriarchy is not their natural enemy, yet they have made them so because of their deeds. By maintaining gender identity and sexual preference as one and the same thing, they have become the whipping post for mainstream. When we transitioned we did so quietly. Very little media attention was sought or desired. Those that had “sex changes” were reported in the media as medical anomalies. Mainstream bought into this definition 40-50 years ago, they even granted many of us the right to marry in our new gender, change sex markers on documents with little or no fuss, go about our business without showing discrimination.
The transgender load mouthed activists of the GLBT changed all this. They aired their laundry in public and brought about a new attitude among mainstream. They may have meant well but they did considerable damage to all transsexuals. You may think that there has always been discrimination against transsexuals but the fact of the matter is that it’s just not true. Yes some, even back then some were discriminated against, but we do not know that they would not have been discriminated against even if they were not transsexual. Discrimination is not limited to groups. However, the answer is not to circle the wagons. We are not equipped, not even and especially so as part of the GLB. Even if the GLB get what they want, the transgender and Transsexuals that support them will pay the price. They will never get what they want, either by law or by social change. The really sad part is that we already had what you all now think we need, and the GLB told you to join in their struggle to attain. Either way, you’re all screwed, and by association, so are we.
Well, Leigh, if you had read Raymond you’d have seen that she, a radical feminist, accuses all TS women — “women with a TS history” (or ‘herstory’ if you prefer) — of being just what Llorta accuses you of, being “a man who’s ultimate goal is to perpetuate the patriarchy and undermine feminism.”
Being a moderate (or progressive) feminist, I completely disagree with that POV. Not to get into life histories here (oops, too late) but I transitioned in 1985 in “tolerant” San Francisco and felt immediate social rejection and discrimination, so my hat’s off to you for having that part of early transition go well for you.
I will never agree to this whole “pure” or “classic” transsexual mindset because it reeks of the same kind of separatism that radicals like Raymond support. No matter how much we agree with their extremist gender politics, they will NEVER recognize a post-op TS woman as a member of the sisterhood.
To address my original point, radical feminism — including separatism, man-bashing and spelling “women” as “womym” (and “history” as “herstory”) — hurts the larger feminist goals of equal treatment, opportunities and salaries, among other things, by giving the anti-feminists a portrait of feminism that portrays us all as nuts. Sadly, too many people focus on the extremes, which is what these talking heads bank on.
“I transitioned in 1985 in “tolerant” San Francisco and felt immediate social rejection and discrimination”
The operative word in that is San Francisco. I had the misfortune to live there for a few years, could not wait to leave. The worst place to transition is any place where the GLB hold a substantial presence. Hence what I say that the misconception that the GLB are in any way helpful to a transitioning transsexual is a total phalacy. If you don’t get it from the gays themselves, you will certainly get it from mainstream straights.
I disagree on the radical raymond types. I believe the transgender are reaping what they have sown, a backlash that was not necessary and would not have happened had they not thrown in with the GLB.
In short .. the GLB are at the core of all the discrimination faced by transsexuals in their bid to simply be who they were born to be. The transgender created this mess with their constant whining to be accepted for something most of them are not and never will be.
Llorta has a right to her opinion, and if she wants to find me manly then she is welcome to come explain it to my old man.
How could the “transgenders” created the radical Raymond types? She published that piece of trash in 1979, long before even “Virginia” Prince used that word and certainly before the transgender political movement began in the early 90s. Back in the 70s, as you should be very well aware of, there were only closeted passing TS women and “queens.” The Queens weren’t politically active, they were well below the radar in the gay ghettos and places like my old neighborhood, the Tenderloin. The only ones visible to the Raymond “feminists” were “pure” “classic” transsexuals who didn’t 100% pass as GG. It is the purists that this forum seems to be built around that the whole anti-TS backlash of radical feminism were built around. This is why the tone of this whole thread so surprises and dismays me. Bone up on your TS/TG history before you make allegations about “transgenders.”
First off, Raymond is, for all practical purposes, ancient history. That nasty piece was written a long time ago, by a person who carries little, if any, real credibility in the world today.
Her book, “The Transsexual Empire,” is so absurd in it ideas that no one with a shred of sanity would ever really take it seriously. Yes, there are a few extremists who still cling to that sort of silliness, though it is increasingly aimed at pre-ops and non-ops, as well as those occasional post-ops who are never going to assimilate as women. And that is not because of appearance, but because of behavior.
It really has no relevance to this discussion, but it makes a nice club for beating people into submission.
Now, as to the issue of classic, or true transsexuals (personally, I prefer Harry Benjamin Syndrome) I realize there are those who raise a horrific howl about such as they feel, rightly, or wrongly, that they do not fit that description. But the fact remains that such a distinction is valid.
When you have people who transition after long successful careers as men, sometimes having served 20 years in the military, then something is off.
Now, I happen to live in San Francisco. I have no problems. I am not remotely out. A few close friends know my past, but most don’t. On a couple of occasions, I made the mistake of assuming that people who were in some state of transition were aware of my situation, and have found that they were quite surprised when I said something that let them know that I was a transsexual.
At the same time, I have little, if anything, to do with the “TG community.” I avoid contact as much as possible. Since I completed my surgery, I have had sexual relations with several men who had no idea I was anything but a female.
I work as a woman, and live my life as a woman. I really don’t care to be known as anything else.
Granted, I had alread transitioned before I came here. At first, I was afraid because I had heard stories about people being so aware that “tall women all are assumed to be trans.” I quickly learned that was not quite true. In truth, there are so many who appear to be nothing but men in dresses that those who are passable are largely overlooked. I realized this when I heard a few stories about how badly some are treated. People here are really not that tolerant in practice. If you are read, you will know it. And if you aren’t, you will know that as well.
I said, radical raymond “TYPES” .. ie: the type of woman that may have a perspective such as raymond. Wasn’t there also Anita Bryant down in Florida?
I have no idea or interest what the queens were doing in america back in the 70’s, I did not arrive here till 1978.
If you read what we are saying instead of reading between the lines, you will see that it has nothing to do with being a purist or an elitist, it has to do with not allowing our identities to be conflated with the homosexual based transgender movement. As I said before, I do not believe transgender and transsexual are one and the same thing and I refuse to allow transgenders to define me to their standard, and their political goals, which is not mine.
Raymond’s book is not as ancient history as you’d like to think. It was republished in 1994 and those attitudes have carried on to this very day. Look no further than the Michigan’s Women’s Music Festival, that still has a policy of ejected any postop no matter how well she passes as GG if she’s clocked. Look no further than the Seattle Indymedia thread below, less than four years old. Radical feminism is still alive and well, and though you may dismiss Raymond as being believed only by “a few extremists” real world stories show this is far from the case. Perhaps only because you pass so well and have little contact with politically active TS people & TGs that you don’t know about it.
P.S. Are you the “Jennifer Usher” from usenet who moved to San Francisco earlier this decade?
Leigh, please describe the “homosexual based transgender movement” to me, it’s members and agenda. What is a “homosexual” transgender anyway? Me because I’m attracted to women? Or you, as BBL would terms you, because you’re attracted to men?
There’s no “reading between the lines” you blames the Raymond mindset on transgenders (who were called “queens” back in Raymond’s day) and who were below her radar. It was transwomen like you, “pure” and classic” as you put it, who inspired radical feminists against transwomen.
If you’re going to keep ignoring my answers to your debate points there isn’t much point in continuing. I can only type the same facts a couple of times and I get bored.
I forget to include the link to the Seattle Indymedia thread:
http://www.seattle.indymedia.org/en/2005/10/249545.shtml
— see just how dead Raymond’s ideas are.
BTW, Leigh, Anita Bryant was anything but a feminist. She was a “Christian” who crusaded against gay people. I don’t see how she’s relevant to our discussion of radical feminism or transsexual women.
A Homosexual transgender to me is someone that is primarily homosexual or Lesbian, that later decided they were transgender, and then after further thought decided that they were also transsexual.
I blame the raymond mindset of today on transgender activism .. yes!
I didn’t inspire radical feminists to anything they didn’t already aspire to. In a lot of ways I get what they are saying, and agree with their point of view, in spite of the fact that I may be a target of their frustration and anger. I have an uncle by marriage, 110% KKK, bigoted to the core against everything, black, jew, fag he hates them all. He was always friendly to me though. It’s because he knows, sense’s that I am not primarily homosexual. Same can be said for the gays, never had one hit on me, even in a gay bar, they know I am not gay. As for you preferring women as a partner I don’t see anything unusual about that. Many of us tend to stay with women as partners long after SRS. I think its a transition thing that one day you get over. Some never do.
And the facts thing, quit trying to sway me with facts. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks, or as my mom used to say, there are none so deaf as those that will not hear.
“Anita Bryant was anything but a feminist. She was a “Christian” who crusaded against gay people”
Well there you are you see, didn’t I tell you I dont read up on these things ?
“I blame the raymond mindset of today on transgender activism .. yes!”
The point that you keep ignoring is that the Raymond mindset of today is the same ignorant bigotry as it was in the 70s when there *was* no transgender activism or visibility at all. That you agree with these radical feminists even in principle — the same principle that drives the KKK and gay bashers and anti-Semites — makes you a hypocrite. You want to be accepted and yet you embrace ignorance and bigotry.
I’m done. When you said “quit trying to sway me with facts” means I’m debating with a fanatic. I might as well debating with a Fundamentalist Christian, and my time is way too valuable for that.
P.S. Frankly, the whole separatist tone of this forum disgusts me. I wandered in here following a link, and I feel like I should leave before I catch any cooties.
The point I keep trying to make is that what you term the same ignorant bigotry as it was in the 70’s .. based on one book.. is NOT what I experienced from those I had dealings with. You are taking the writings of one person and extending that to all of patriarchal society as though every woman in the 70’s was in agreement with whatever Janice Raymond and her band of followers thought.
Some people will always be bigoted. You can perhaps keep them from expressing it, but you cannot keep them from thinking it. Just because I happen to agree with them whilst at the same time may be the target of their actions, does not make me a hypocrit. Thats just the way I believe in things which is obviously not your way but each to their own.
“You want to be accepted and yet you embrace ignorance and bigotry.”
No… I do not buy into the notion of accepted. I leave that to the transgender.
And as for your assertion that we are seperatists tell me how on earth someone can be a seperatist from something they don’t feel they belong to in the first place. If your so hung up on facts why don’t you go find the one that called for a vote to include people like myself and the Intersex into your GLB soup? Show me where I or any of us had any say in the matter? The GLB annexed the transsexuals and are about to do the same thing to the Intersex, without our permission or consent. Let us go and we will be happy to let you go do whatever it is you do.
And don’t start with the insults, it’s a transgender tactic that we have all seen before.
“the GLB annexed the transsexuals ”
Oh, the pooor little twansexxuals! You make it sound like those transsexual women who embrace the larger transgender movement (as I do) were somehow forced into accepting it. That is crap. Reality Check: just because some TS women believe as you do, does not mean you speak for all of us.
BTW, I see plenty of TS women insulting each other here on these threads, so I guess it’s not only a “a transgender tactic.”
P.S. The way you all say “transgender” reminds me of how Limbaugh and Coulter and the hardcore neocon loonies use the word “liberal” (or like McCarthy used “Communist”). I guess some folks really need their boogeymen to make sense o fthe world.
Yes, there are radical feminists, like the MWMF which seems to drive some TGs into fits of anger. Why is beyond me. So what if a group of women who can’t spell women want to go out in the woods and listen to music? To my way of thinking, being upset about not being welcome makes about as much sense as the NAACP being upset that they are not welcome to visit Klan headquarters for tea and cakes.
Christine, you might notice that, unlike most TG blogs, you are welcome to speak your mind here. You see, we don’t fear disagreement. You are also welcome to visit my blog, where you will find even more to disagree with.
I always find it interesting that those who identify as transgender seem to be so obsessed with the idea that someone might simply wish to live their lives as women.
While the term “transgender” was not that common in the 1970’s there were those who were already exhibiting the attitudes and behavior that would become the hallmarks of the modern “TG community.” A good example of this would be those like Renée Richards.
I suspect that most here would have no problem with “transgender” were the term not forced onto us. Simply put, we do not wish to be associated with the beliefs that have become associated with the term, nor do we wish to be linked with the majority of those that term is supposed to apply to.
We simply wish to live our lives as the women that we are.
Christine, I was looking over your web site…interesting. In a previous comment here you say you transitioned in 1985 in “‘tolerant’ San Francisco” yet in 1986, according to your transition timeline page, you “detransitioned”, then gave it another shot a couple of years later. Geez, under those terms, I transitioned in 1969. You also say that you started crossdressing “as a fetish only” (1978)…decided you “…identified with TSs…” after reading a book for the second time (1985)…at one point, you were “cleared for SRS” by a therapist (1991), yet the next year you were “turned down with finality” from having GRS (1992), before finally having GRS roughly 10 years later. With that background, there is no doubt in my mind you have “no idea” what classic transsexuality is.
With regard to feminism and the entire Janice Raymond narrative, it may surprise you but aside from feminists and the transgender, I doubt 1% of the country has ever even heard of her, and if they have, could give a rat’s butt what she has to say. The average person living over on Maple Street USA could care less about feminism and couldn’t tell you the difference between first/second/third/radical/conservative/etc feminism if their life depended on it. The truth is no one gives a damn. If you have been around as long as you claim to have been, you have long realized that one’s acceptance is a one-on-one proposition based on the same variables that govern any other two people on the planet who meet…regardless of whether they are gay, transsexual, or some other variety of the transgender circus. I have worked all over the country since my GRS…West Coast, East Coast, North, Southwest, South, all over…people relate to other people based on what they see standing in front of them, and there are good people everywhere. Personally, feminist theory is a huge turn-off to me, and every female I know.
Though I have read The Transsexual Phenomenon and keep up with the scientific research if it crosses my screen, like Leigh and many others, autobiographies of transsexual women, and books by the same spouting the latest gender philosophy are just plain boring to me. Just as I don’t speak for anyone else, those people don’t speak for me either. Photos of a post op prior to when they had GRS tells me everything I need to know about where that person is coming from. And, quite honestly, when I see a post op female involved with yet another post op female I just shake my head.
Someone brought up “legitimacy” and how we have lost it…someone else questioned what legitimacy we had lost and how. I’ll tell you what and how. Somehow transitioning from male to female, wanting to blend into society, get involved with a nice guy, settling down in the mainstream, living under the radar to everyone but those who need to know, finally enjoying life after correcting the cruel trick nature played on us…that entire concept, that honest legitimacy…has become a farce, it is reviled by the transgender, looked down upon. It is said by the transgender that we are hiding, in the closet, transphobic, have copped out, yada, yada, yada, bullshit…its incessant. Why? Because we can? Because others can’t? Because today all someone who wants to transition has to do is walk outside and say, “Hey, world, I’m a girl now” ? They make no effort…it’s an entitlement they claim…a right. The result? A bunch of transgender shouting “I have rights” from the roof tops. Nothing wrong with that, until they not only start claiming to be like me, but expect me to be like them…march in the streets, be “out and proud.” If they want to put exactly no effort into their transition, live their lives in the transgender community, become romantically involved with other post ops, claim to be feminist, join a Wiccan covet, march in Pride Parades every Spring, play dress-up on YouTube, write books identical to each other, or simply twiddle their thumbs…that is fine. But…they are not like me.
There are tens and tens and tens and TENS of thousands of post op TSs in the United States alone. Where are they, Christine? Why aren’t they marching in the streets with you? Why aren’t they lobbying congress for special laws? Why aren’t the transgender blogs crammed solid with hundreds and hundreds of comments from these thousands and thousands of post op ladies, Christine? I’ll tell you why I think you don’t see them. I think for the most part because they are just like me, and Leigh (whom I’ve known personally, along with her husband, for years) and others who post here. They have surgically corrected their gender issue…they are over it, things are right now. They have done what I have described above…they’ve had GRS and are settled down into the mainstream, content on enjoying their life just as the woman next door might be doing.
When I hear people who haven’t a clue what it is like to be a true transsexual (yet claim they are “just like me” ) start insulting those of us who have known since our earliest childhood that something was horribly wrong with our gender identity…those of us who have persevered to have GRS…and now want nothing more than to enter the mainstream as just another female and enjoy our life with as little fan fare as neccessary…those of us who don’t walk around with a chip on our shoulder nor feel the world is one huge death trap filled with people who want to kill us, I tend to bristle.
“Reality Check: just because some TS women believe as you do, does not mean you speak for all of us.”
I speak for me and me alone, but I am defined by you and yours by weight of numbers.
Reality checks work both ways; just because most transgenders think as you do, does not mean you are right, a fact born out by the vastly larger society at large that are openly hostile to your movement.
Well, as a heroin-addicted prostitue with the AIDS virus — the boat I was in when I detransitioned in October of 1986 — I’d say I had bigger problems than my gender. When I got clean & sober two years later, I retransitioned. I was still in the community, tho, my lover was TS as was our roommate and most of our friends. And I never stopped regretting my detransition, which is probably why I tried to OD on heroin so many times in those two years. The AIDS virus was also why I was turned down for SRS in 1992, not due to lack of desire or money or HBIGDA paperwork. I *did* persevered to have my SRS, darlin’, so don’t presume to lecture me
So now, don’t you feel like an asshole for judging my life based on incomplete information? Maybe not, I’ve seen a lot of unpleasantness in here since I came in two days ago. Here’s a bit of food for thought, even fewer people in this country care less about your “classic” transsexual / transgender sociopolitical war.
Those of you who have passing privilege, more power to you. But know this: most people out there don’t know or care about the difference between TS, transgender or even gay, and those who don’t pass perfectly or neatly fit into a closet must deal with that vast group of most people and their prejudices. So you can hunker down in here and pat yourselves on the back for assimilating so well and being such perfect “primary” transsexuals. I hope it’s very fulfilling for you.
“But know this: most people out there don’t know or care about the difference between TS, transgender or even gay”
Thats a fact! And how would they even begin to know when transgender/GLBT dogma insists on their umbrella rainbow that includes every known perversion under the Teegee label?
You subscribe to a group of people that try to brow beat the poplace into accepting perversion as the norm. You and your kind use words like bigot, self loathing, homophobic and transphobic and repeatedly using them as a club to silence anyone that disagrees with you. You tirelessly claim that you are fighting for civil rights when in fact your version of civil rights would seek to strip women of their civil right not to have every transgender claiming asshole share their private spaces. You assimilate every group of unrepresented people into your ever growing LGB acronym with nary a thought or consideration of the consequences of the action, and tell those that speak out about it that they have to like it or lump it. Who is next for you, the handicapped? how about wheelchair bound folks, hey they need sex too right?
You are pissed at us for nothing more than having the unmittigated gaul to call you out for what you are, a transvestic male that got their kicks from turning tricks in the gay community, then falsly claiming that you are transsexual simply because nobody could prove you weren’t.
It irks you to no end that we see right through you. You have tried to turn it around by claiming that we are hiding in a closet, throwing our passing privledge in our faces, claiming that we are bigoted toward you, the transgender and the GLB.
We never asked to be a part of this group. You invaded our space, we are the resistance. Whine all you like, we are growing and fighting back. More websites are springing up saying the same things we are. The fires are growing and sooner or later the media will see them and wonder what is going on within your community and once that happens, the GLB will drop you lot like hot potatoes. See if it don’t happen …
You see, Christine, that is the issue. There can be no dialogue on the subject without someone feeling they are being judged, a point I mentioned in my last post. I am sorry to hear of your misfortune, but pointing out only what you mention in you own web site is not judging you. “There, but for the Grace of God, go I.” Indeed, I, myself, did attempt to transition in late 1969 (and yet a second time about 10 years later) before eventually succeeding roughly the same time you did, Meltzer was my surgeon as well. No one is lecturing you. On the contrary, it seems you are the one who showed up here like a bull in a china shop if I’m not mistaken. And, the only unpleasantness you have seen since your visit here has been defense after multiple onslaughts from those who adhere to the transgender (GLBT) philosophy.
“Here’s a bit of food for thought, even fewer people in this country care less about your “classic” transsexual/transgender sociopolitical war.”
That is exactly right; you are correct, they could care less. Unfortunately, one reason they do is because they make no distinction between the two. The GLBT has succeeded nicely in melding everyone under their umbrella.
“But know this: most people out there don’t know or care about the difference between TS, transgender or even gay, and those who don’t pass perfectly or neatly fit into a closet must deal with that vast group of most people and their prejudices.”
You are quite right, most people out there don’t care, much less know the difference between TS, TG, and GLB. Again, the GLBT has done an excellent job of furthering the stereotype that we are all the same. They are now colonizing the intersex as well. But, we are not the same, and the GLBT know that. And, in fact, after the ENDA debacle, the HRC put out a talking points memo that addressed the tens and tens of thousands of heterosexual, mainstream post op transsexuals and how they invisioned recruiting their support; the GLB as a whole fully realize there are thousands of post ops out there who are not happy at being characterized not only as transgender, but homosexual as well and that they need, or at least would like to have, our support. And, they might be able to get it if they would just recognize our position, and make a point of differentiating it. But, by the same token, the GLBT are doing nothing to educate society that not everyone who is transsexual or even transgender is also homosexual…or even support across the board, carte blanche, the GLBT. The transgender as such does nothing but vilify us. It is very much in the interest of the gay movement to colonize as many groups as they are allowed to. You’ve got to know that the handful of us who openly resent that are well aware that we are not going to change the philosophy and political tactics of the gay rights movement. But some of us have finally had enough and are at least going to speak out against it.
“Those of you who have passing privilege, more power to you.”
Honestly, Christine, that argument is getting somewhat old. I’ve been around for a long time, and I must admit that I pass virtually all the time. But you must know as well as I do that those who absolutely pass 100% of the time are way, way far and few between. I’m not going to lecture you (I’m sure you know) but passing has way less to do with one’s outward appearance as it does by simply how one presents in total. I know some post ops who by any stretch of the imagination would be considered butt ugly who pass almost perfectly. Conversely, I have known others who, if physical beauty were the only gauge, should pass all the time, yet constantly have trouble with the mainstream. I’m not at all saying physical appearance is not important; obviously it is. But it is not, by a long shot, what determines if one passes or not. I know you’ve had FFS. So have I. So has Leigh. There is no doubt that helps with the physical presentation, but it’s not at all a guarantee of a free pass. Any passing privilege I have is something I worked very hard for, and continue working very hard for. That privilege was gained by frequenting mainstream establishments knowing as soon as I walked in I would be clocked. I didn’t give up, I kept at it…I watched the other women…learned how to dress like they did, how to make-up like they did, do my hair like they did, body language…compared myself to them, emulated them. A lot of work for sure, but that is simply what women do; it’s a female thing, yet many transgender feel that putting forth that kind of effort is somehow selling out, hiding, being pretentious, or some other nonsense. I learned how to deflect the rude question that from time to time came out…didn’t have a chip on shoulder. Then one day, I passed. It took years. Can everyone who transitions afford FFS? Obviously, no, they can’t. But could many, many of those who don’t pass pull it off if they would just put the monumental effort that is required into it? Yes, I think they could. Passing is way more a matter of confidence, demeanor, personality, and attitude than it is blunt physical appearance. Make no mistake, I have nothing but nothing but sympathy for those who, in spite of everything they do, have a hard time passing. You are quite right, people can be quite cruel with their prejudices. And when you couple some of society’s gender prejudices with the same issues they have with the gay rights movement those prejudices can be legion. Is that right? Obviously, no, it isn’t. But it is out there, and anyone who transitions should consider that before they decide to transition because it must be dealt with. Personally, I don’t think aligning one’s self with a group of gay men in moustaches, outlandish make-up, pink wigs, and tutus at a gay Pride parade is the way to overcome the misconceptions of the mainstream. As well, neither do I think picketing the Mormon church is either…not to mention the out-and-proud-in-your-face-get-over-it attitude that many seem to think will somehow persuade the mainstream that we are indeed…female. Passing is an individual effort that any extremely male socialized TS has to confront everyday, with a monumental effort, until it becomes a non-issue. Legislation is not going to help them. Many seem to have the attitude of screw the mainstream, why should I have to conform to what society sees as male or female? Well, the short answer is that one doesn’t have to conform. On the other hand, those that feel that way should understand they will stand out.
“You are pissed at us for nothing more than having the unmittigated gaul to call you out for what you are, a transvestic male that got their kicks from turning tricks in the gay community, then falsly claiming that you are transsexual”
Ooooh, how “transgender” of you, Leigh, why not go all the way and say “got HIS kicks” instead? For the record: gay men are not into sex with pre-ops, they want men. Also, if being able to pay my rent and feed myself qualifies as getting my “kicks” well then you got me there.
BTW, many people think of us as being “perverted” if not downright sick for having SRS, so be careful about using that word, it sounds hypocritical coming out of your mouth. Actually, pretty much everything out of your mouth sounds hypocritical, unpleasant or downright mean. My hat’s off to SA-ET for at least being civil and reasoned in her arguments, even though I disagree with much of them. You’d do well to emulate her.
The thing is, as much as you rail against the non-closeted TS women like me who choose visibility and political action, we’re working for you too. Because when one of you gets clocked, all of your “pure” and “classical” talk won’t save you if those who learn your past want to discriminate. Most TS women know this, even the ones who choose to stay stealth and silently support the effort.
The gay community needed visibility to gain the acceptance it has slowly obtained, and that lesson was not lost on most of us. The small number of signers of your petition (only 121 world wide in a *year*) and tiny list of participants here should be your first clue. You’re like the Japanese holed up in island caves after WWII, who thought the war was still going on. Best of luck in your “resistance.”
P.S. When I saw Jennifer Usher’s name on the list should have been my first clue as to the nature of this group. How many other alt.”support”.srs refugees are here as well?
LOL .. She’s the good cop !
ROTFL! Actually, I don’t reveal my name as I am a rather private person. You are not the first person to jump to that conclusion. I do find it interesting that some TGs have this obsession with knowing who a person is. No, I choose to remain anonymous. Jennifer is a common name. Don’t make the mistake of jumping to conclusions just so you can imagine that you are discrediting someone.
Now to answer some of the recent comments…you claim that “gay” men are not interested in pre-ops. That, I suppose, is technically correct. Then men who seek out transgender or transsexual women often will assert that they are not gay, and will usually claim to be straight. I met a few guys like that after I came to San Francisco. Between being asked if I was “functional” and being told by more than one that I should not have surgery because “they liked me just the way I was” I quickly figured out what was going on. I gave up dating until after my surgery. I was not really looking for sex to begin with, but that was all they wanted. If you think they “really” saw you as a woman, then I have a great deal on the Golden Gate Bridge to offer you.
Until the “transgender” crowd became such a fad, we were largely unnoticed. Yes, some people had issues with us, but most saw transsexualism as the rare medical condition that it was, and still is. But when guys with fetishes started getting turned on by the idea of surgery, and decided to go public, things turned nasty.
Yes, our numbers are small. As I said, true transsexualism or Harry Benjamin Syndrome, is rare. There are certainly far more “transgender” types. They used to be called transvestites, or crossdressers, but now they want to be called “non-op transsexuals” in many cases. But, I have a suspicion that the fad will fade, especially when they push too far and the public backlash occurs.
You see, you want to be a man who had surgery, and others want to be men in dresses. Transsexuals simply want to be women (or men if they are FTM). You are playing a game. We are living our lives.
Its a funny thing. My life improved when I transitioned. For many, like yourself, it got worse. Perhaps that ought to tell you something.
No, when you, and others, get tired of your game, we will still be living our lives as normal women.
Nice try, Ms. Usher. Perhaps you shouldn’t have signed your full name on the petition or used the “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” phrase in the signing. Ah yes, we go waaaaaaay back little darlin’. Perhaps I should dredge up certain quotes from usenet or links to photos? Or perhaps you should stop digging a deeper hole.
BTW, your assumptions about my life could not be more off base. After I got clean & sober and retransitioned, my life got better by leaps and bounds. I’m 20 years with the same company, a respected software engineer making six figures, owning company stock and living very comfortably. I remember from alt.”support”.srs what it was like for you. So let’s not continue to dredge up anyone else’s past.
ROTFL! I never said I signed the petition. And there are several people who use the term Harry Benjamin Syndrome. If you wish to assume that you know who I am, and to try to use that to discredit me, that is your choice. But all you are doing is digging your own hole and proving what I said.
As to our going way back, that would be difficult since you really don’t know who I am. But I am touched that you are so scared of what I say that you are grasping at straws.
Why don’t you try to actually deal with what I say, rather than attempting desperate personal attacks on someone you think I am.
“Why don’t you try to actually deal with what I say, rather than attempting desperate personal attacks on someone you think I am.”
because you’re right on track .. irks the buggers to no end!
(bad cop)
Too late, Ms. Usher. I’ve read enough of your posts in this forum to correlate to the person I know from useNUT. And since I know who you are I know better than to argue with you. Perhaps I should pop over to alt.retort.srs and tell Diane and Natasha you’re skulking around in here. They’d *love* to come visit you, I’m certain.
I know. I have seen this sort of behavior before on other web sites. On one I was accused of being someone else who is not even named Jennifer. Go figure.
I have no idea who, or what, you are talking about. As to your “arguing” with me, as I said, you clearly having nothing more than personal attacks. That says a lot.
“I have no idea who, or what, you are talking about.”
LOL! You can’t even lie well, Ms. Jennifer Usher. You started posting as “Just Jennifer” here right after you signed the petition; I checked the dates. Or is it just a coincidence that two TS women from San Francisco named Jennifer who use the ridiculous phrase “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” are active in this “Classic” TS women’s group at the same time.
You should go into politics. You’d be in great company: “I did not have sex with that woman” and “I only went into that mens room to answer nature’s call.”
I’m sure Diane and Natasha will be glad to remake your acquaintance.
My, but you seem obsessed with me. Are you really that afraid to actually have to defend your positions? As I said, I have no idea who you are talking about. I know several women named Jennifer, besides myself. At least one is TS, though not the one you think I am. Your case is weak, given it is based on me having the same first name as this person you think I am. Again, I am very private. I don’t know why you think I would post anywhere with my real name.
Sighhh, still the same old cowardly Usher. Even when somebody caught you in a lie on alt.support.srs you’d never own up to it. At least when Diane caught me behind that sockpuppet I had the guts to admit it. We’re done.
If anybody wants a real hoot (plus evidence if why usenet is untenable as a support forum) Google “alt.support.srs usher” to see some of Jennifer’s greatest hits.
“The small number of signers of your petition (only 121 world wide in a *year*) and tiny list of participants here should be your first clue.”
You are right, my blog is just a small little insignificant blip. I don’t link to other blogs, and have never asked anyone to link to mine. I only get three to four thousand hits a month…not all that much in the big scheme of things I suppose.
On the other hand, I don’t publish posts here to become popular or garner participants, but simply to voice my own frustrated opinions. You don’t have the issues I bring up here and for you, Christine, that is a good thing. Your position will prevail, none of us are under any illusions to the contrary.
I have lost count of how many times you have indicated you were going to leave, not argue, or whatever. You seem fixated on me, and linking me to some person you imagine me to be. As I have observed, it is pretty obvious that you want to avoid the real issues. I don’t know that you have any right to come anyone a coward, even if it is just a figment of your imagination.
amen
SA-ET, I think your point will be lost on a TG like Christine. For them, it is all about “winning.” But, as I say, I imagine the fad will pass, and they will fade away. And even if they don’t, we can go on living our lives.
The things you miss when busy with other tasks….
Christine;
For someone who lived in such a forgiving place as SF I am surprised you never ran into any paleo-transgender people there.
Now queens but TG folk living as women and working in mainstream society.
They were all over southern California in the 80’s.
SF is not for me, been there, not my idea of a nice place to live. I know some like it.
I doubt that many of them were hanging out around the Tenderloin.
I like it here, but not for the reasons one might think. It is actually a pretty decent city to live in. There are things that get old, really fast, but there are also lots of nice things to enjoy. I have good friends, and can always find something interesting to amuse me.
It seems that people either really love it, or really hate it.
Good grief! How did I miss this “discussion”?
Christine, the petition is mine, not SA-ET’s or Leigh’s.
It grows in spurts…in the past month or so quite a few but the fact is it is not widely known being linked only from a couple of lower volume blogs like my own which gets far less traffic than this one I suspect.
As for all that went on here, I am a feminist myself, an active one. I do have discussions with those you’d call rad-fems and I can tell you that the positions spring as much from the fact that there is no good way to separate the sheep from the TG goats other than plain old “vibes” or as I sometimes say “women know other women”. Even that boogie-woman Janice Raymond has made “exceptions” believe it or not.
And Raymond, outside of very very limited rad-fem circles, is not even a footnote in modern feminism. An unknown wannabe most feminist women never heard of unless they encounter some whiny TG.
You really should get out in the real world more.
“It seems that people either really love it, or really hate it.”
Mark Twain said about San Francisco ..
“The coldest winter I ever spent was the summer in San Francisco”
I lived there for a few years in the late 90’s. Honestly, I do not have a good thing to say about the place. No where to park, slum quality housing at peak prices, everything is uphill, prices are over inflated even for groceries, traffic is horrendous, shopping is nothing special and very overpriced, costs you more to garage your car than the monthly payment is, the nightlife is not all that, unless your punk or gay, the weather is awful in the city, which always seems to have a fog hanging over it. Couldn’t wait to get out and will never go back.
Well, actually while that quote is attributed to Mark Twain, it is generally accepted that it is not really one of his. Nor would there have been any truth in it if he did say it. Granted, is currently (1:47 in the afternoon) around 57 degrees here in the Mission. I’d much rather be here than in Alabama where it is 90 (which actually makes it a relatively cool day for this time of the year.
Now, as to the rest…I grant, housing is not cheap here, but you get what you pay for. I could get a much larger, much nicer place in a lot of places, and have lived in such places…I prefer San Francisco. I don’t need, or own a car, so parking and traffic are not major issues for me. Food prices depend on where you shop. To my amazement, I have found that the local mom and pop places are actually more reasonable than larger chains like Safeway (the opposite of my experience elsewhere). I’ll admit, I am not much of a nightlife person. I have a few favorite places I go with friends. On the other hand, I can find excellent places for almost any cuisine I can imagine. The sole exception is I have not been able to find a decent steak and kidney pie. Yes, I actually like English food. My good friend from England says it is hereditary since my grandparents were from England. And I rather like the fog. I have some lovely photos of it and the Golden Gate Bridge And compared to other places I have lived, the weather is not bad at all. Severe weather (tornadoes, hurricaines and such), is all unheard of. I love things like a cable car ride, a trip to Fisherman’s Wharf, and the overall culture of one of the world’s great cities. I get the best of a place like New York in a much friendlier place.
“The sole exception is I have not been able to find a decent steak and kidney pie.”
Allow me to help you out. Try the Pig & Whistle pub at 108 Wood Street, corner of Geary and Wood. English Bangers, Steak and Kidney Pie’s, Cornish Pasties and british ale to wash it down with. I was dining there one mid afternoon with a friend, shortly after having FFS. I was all bandaged up and finding it very difficult to eat when a girl at the adjacent table asked me what had happened to me.
I replied, traffic accident, head on smash, broke my nose and smashed my jaw. She was horrified ! LOL
Alas, I know the place well, and the last time I checked, they did not have Steak and Kidney Pie. Bangers and Mash, yes, but no Steak and Kidneys.
And I like your response. I take you went to the famous Dr. O.
Hmmm .. wasn’t sure about the Steak & Kidney, wasn’t my favorite food. My mother made her own when I was young, and it was quite awful!
Yes I have the trademark “O” ski-slope nose and he did the recontouring of the jawline. Or as some call him, Dr $35K. Now if you want the best darn dentist in the whole country, and you can afford his fees, I highly recommend Dr Blende, pacific heights area of SF. In fact, his skills are the only reason I would ever find myself back in the town. I had sedation dentistry with him, cost a new Jaguar but worth every penny. No pain, before during or after, all done in the operating room under full anesthesia and about 10% cocaine which took almost 3 days to wear off. Best high I ever had !
Pig & Whistle was one of the first places I looked. Oddly enough, for a City that has about food from some pretty obscure places (I have heard of places that specialize in Chinese food from a specific city) they have very little English food. Ethiopian? Sure. Afghan? Piece of cake. But English? Nope. I know a lovely place in Chattanooga, TN what will make you think you are in London, but San Francisco has virtually nothing.
I have seen some fantastic results from Dr. O. As to Dr. Blende, I have to wonder if he is covered by my dental plan. Somehow, I doubt it, but you never know.
Give him a call Jenn .. Cant hurt to ask and if they can work with your dental plan, you will be glad you did.
http://www.drblende.com/
British food is mostly underated throughout the world. We have some wonderful dishes but we are not big on sauces and spices .. we leave that for the french that have to cover the taste of their rotten meat
Sausages .. british style .. I buy from here http://www.balsonbutchers.com/index.html
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Give him a call Jenn .. Cant hurt to ask and if they can work with your dental plan, you will be glad you did.
[(http://www.drblende.com/)]
British food is mostly underated throughout the world. We have some wonderful dishes but we are not big on sauces and spices .. we leave that for the french that have to cover the taste of their rotten meat
Sausages .. british style .. I buy from
[(Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Give him a call Jenn .. Cant hurt to ask and if they can work with your dental plan, you will be glad you did.
drblende.com
British food is mostly underated throughout the world. We have some wonderful dishes but we are not big on sauces and spices .. we leave that for the french that have to cover the taste of their rotten meat
Sausages .. british style .. I buy from
balsonbutchers.com/index.html
I will do that. I had a dentist I rather liked, but she dropped out of the plan.
Yes, I agree. There are several local sources for decent bangers. And there is a place I need to check out that might have frozen steak and kidney pies and such, but I would prefer fresh. But I will check out that site.