The first I read of the details of this murder was over at Zoe’s site, A. E. Brain…you can read what I read HERE.
The gist of the report is that a teenage, post op moderator on a TG support site, Raychel Roo, was outed by a lawyer. Later, while riding her bike to a store she was attacked, gang raped, then beaten…with a sledge hammer…and, then, incredibly…buried alive. Nonetheless, in spite of both knees being broken and, evidently, enough other head and upper body sledge hammer damage to put her in intensive care where she subsequently died, this person managed to first dig herself out of her grave before then crawling for three hours in an effort to get help. Zoe was having a difficult time. I read with interest. Quickly, the report spread around the net. Below are just a very, very few of the comments from different sites:
Shauna to Zoe: “I am worried about you [Zoe], you sound overwhelmed and really down. Are you ok?”
Zoe to Shauna: “I am sitting here crying…Thanks though. A good, solid cry works wonders…”
halfpintjack: “There are no words for the grief or the fury of this.”
Liz Ashton to Zoe: “I have a 9 year old child who currently wants to be MtF. I’m sat here watching a film with him and burst into tears reading this story.”
Zoe to Liz Ashton: “Liz Ashon – it’s for your daughter that I will never give up, never give in.”
grover: “I am sitting here crying.”
Natalie: “I’ve been crying since I read this.”
Christina Engela: “Things like this sadden me beyond words.”
Battybattybats: “I’ve tried to write a dozen things…words fail to express the horror and anger and disgust.”
Straight Ally from Maine: “I can’t even come up with words to convey how sickened and mortified and appalled that something like this could happen in real life, to anyone.”
robin: “I’m shocked and sickened by this and make me wonder all sort of things…”
Jeff Leroy: “This incident brought tears to my eyes.”
ShrleahLynn: “I had my heart ripped from my chest as I followed the incident.”
Jayme: “This loss hit us all really hard. I felt that I lost a sister and dear friend.”
Michelle Lee: “I have to say that I just saw the post on Laura site today and I cried…”
Kathy Padilla: “My heart goes out to her family, I feel sick just reading this.”
Regan Ducasse: “Only 18 and all that beautiful possibility so horribly gone…I need a hug…so bad.”
Venessia: “A piece of me has died just reading this.”
Cici: “I am deeply saddened by this news!”
Virginia Marie: “Virginia is both sad and angry and cries out “Please say it isn’t so!!!”
Karen: “The story is terrible. It’s visceral. It hit me at a gut level.”
Yes, this was a heart warming story. The outpouring of sadness from the TG community was palpable throughout the blogosphere. Tears, it seems, were cried by everyone. Most were holding up in the face of things though. The TG community’s tears quickly turned to anger and calls for quick passage of hate crimes legislation filled the internet. Cries of discrimination and intolerance and “we have rights too” were heard all around…the community had lost yet another sister and enough was enough. The wagons were circled; something had to be done.
Oh, yes…this was a heartwarming story, but…
It was a hoax.
There was no murder.
Rachel Roo, the Laura’s Playground moderator, was not even a real person.
All that drama for nothing. Dang…I hate it when that happens.
What’s a movement to do when there is no persecution?
46 Comments
“”Oh, yes…this was a heartwarming story, but…
It was a hoax.
There was no murder.
Rachel Roo, the Laura’s Playground moderator, was not even a real person.
All that drama for nothing. Dang…I hate it when that happens.
What’s a movement to do when there is no persecution? “”
This is reminiscent of ASSRS and the pronouncements of a certain cross dresser’s death……..
It’s time for the Tee-Gees to get on with life and assimilate into society.
The only thing that can come from this story is loss of credibility of the Tee-Gees in the eyes of everyone even the gays.
What do you do when a movement has no persecution? take a hint from the Afro Americans and the gays, start running Tee-Gees for public office.
Well, as I have said before, the TG movement loves nothing so much as a good martyr. They were just tickled pink to have a fresh one. They didn;t want to believe it might not be true. From the first I read about it, I had a feeling it was a hoax.
As to the TGs getting on with life and assimilating, that is the last thing they want to do. TG is all about being “different.” They want to force that on society, and to be honest, I wonder if they really want to be accepted. I think if they ever are, then it will lose its appeal for a lot of them.
For me, it is has been the opposite. I have always just wanted to be normal, and have a nice quiet life. I have that now.
Two things:
One:
“All that drama for nothing. Dang…I hate it when that happens.”
Yes, it was drama, and it was for nothing -and it was an embarrassment to all.
Two:
What’s a movement to do when there is no persecution?”
Wrong – there is always persecution. TG people are persecuted all around the the world today – even in the USA. Many of the people on that forum from all over the world can bear this out. In South Africa alone, I can name some examples of people being assaulted, insulted and discriminated against – and at least one murder in the last year – simply for being TG.
And insinuating that just because this was a hoax played by some unknown individual who may or may not even be TG – that all TG people are “crying wolf” is exactly what this sort of hoax is all about. Causing bad publicity – and disregarding all other legitimate reports of hate crime.
Excuse me but may I point out that ALL sorts of people are persecuted every day all around the world. You make it sound like only the TeeGees are being persecuted.
And lets not include assaulted, insulted and discriminated against shall we ? Poor things!
I have been full time over 30 years, and yes sometimes I have been insulted, and some times I was discriminated against, but guess what ? .. I was insulted and discriminated against BEFORE I transitioned too. Who hasn’t ? Did you expect everyone in the world to agree with your lifestyle ? the way you think, what you believe, how you dress or comb your hair?
Women … ALL SORTS of women have been persecuted, discriminated against, insulted and even assaulted and killed since they first appeared on the planet. Well, welcome to the club babe! Nobody asked any of the teegees to join, but since you have decided to do so you should remember that there is a price to pay. If your not willing to pay it then go do something else, but don’t come over here and whine about discrimination and insults, because babe, women know how that is… it’s only men that come to realize it after they decide to join the other team ..
Yeah reality sucks don’t it!
When my Mother found out that I was planning on transitioning, I was 18 years old, she said:
“Are you out of your mind?
Being a woman is a hard and often thankless job. There is a lot more to it than being adored and taken to parties. There is a lot of work involved, for less or no pay and women are never treated as equals”
She was sooooo right, as moms are apt to be! 40 years later it seems the TeeGee crowd are just finding this out.
Poor things!
Kathy Padilla: “My heart goes out to her family, I feel sick just reading this.”
You’re cherry picking the quotes a bit, aren’t you?
Why not add the ones where I said on the same thread that it wasn’t a confirmed story and people really shouldn’t act upon it yet, that I searched & couldn’t find any substaniation of it or of the parents accident story?
Or my others where I was saying people could be perpetrating a cruel hoax?
I do take issue with your characterizing the story as “heart warming” – that’s a very smug description or either a murder or a cruel hoax. The only reason I can see for using it is a need for a small person to satisfy a sad need for feeling superior.
Which is exactly the type of needy emotionalism you complain of.
Can’t you insult better than that, Kathy?
It might come as a surprise to you, but most people don’t go into emotional turmoil, get “sick”…”cry”…or have a “difficult time” when we read of the death or beating of another person. Yet the transgender seem to exhibit all of the expected female emotions when they read that another transgender is assaulted. Is such an assault on a transgender dispicable? Absolutely it is…in the same way that an assault on anyone is a terrible thing.
I don’t complain of anything…except the homosexual transgender idiots hijacking my identity.
Kathy,
The issue is that many transgender activists seem to delight in every martyr that they can drum up. And Heaven help the person who dares to suggest that people might want to be careful and avoid situations where sudden discovery might turn violent. After all, the new party line is that calling oneself a female makes one a female, and all are expected to accept this. Of course, that is total idiocy and outrageous. Women tend to recognize their vulnerability and avoid situations where they might be in danger of attack. Pointing out the need to take such precautions is not seen as “blaming the victim,” but in the fantasy world of the transgender, it is. I’m sorry, in many, if not most, cases where someone is murdered, they should have taken steps to avoid, or at least lessen, the danger. No, that is not saying it is their fault as someone still made the decision to resort to violence, and there is no excuse for that, but that does not mean they should not be advised to play it safe.
No-one died.
That’s a good thing. The rest doesn’t matter in comparison.
Leigh: “You make it sound like only the TeeGees are being persecuted.”
No they aren’t the only ones – but yet we ARE being persecuted in many places – excuse us for being outraged when somebody like us is reported murdered in such a fashion.
“She was sooooo right, as moms are apt to be! 40 years later it seems the TeeGee crowd are just finding this out.”
You obviously don’t know WTF you are talking about. Your attitude and diatribe suggest you bear the same prejudices that made the Nazis what they are today – extinct.
SA-ET: “I don’t complain of anything…except the homosexual transgender idiots hijacking my identity.”
“Homosexual transgender idiots”? You are hijacking your own identity – or the lack of it – don’t blame other people if you lack the ability to see more than the gender binary bigots try to enforce on everyone, instead of a diversity.
Christina :
Since you are so enlightened and I don’t know what the fuck I am talking about, why don’t you tell us all what exactly transgender and GLB activism has accomplished for trans people in the say, the past 20 years?
Don’t tell us what it has gained for the Gays and Lesbians, just tell us what it gained for transsexuals and transgenders.
Go Ahead ! List it all down, talk it up right here. We have lots of room and are waiting to hear what you know.
Itemize it!
1. …………
2. …………
3. …….. etc
Dear Leigh,
1.Far more people know what transgender is in recent times than they did 20 years ago – in fact because of GLBTI activism and education, especially online and in the media, there is far more factual information available than before. Where our info is included as part of the group, it helps to educate and to enlighten.
2.GLBTI activism has given us a louder voice than we ever had before. For example, the important phrase “gender identity” is included in policy documents the world over, including the SA Constitution and numerous other Acts including the Promotion of Equality Act of 2000.
3. Transgender people play a more prominent role in GLBTI activism, many activists are trans – and give us a voice in our group affairs and matters.
4. Many trans people now hold public office and positions in companies and in society – and even in political parties and GLBTI advocacy groups – something almost unheard of 20 years ago.
5.France is one of the first large countries in the world to remove transgender from its catalog of mental disorders – an indication of a future trend.
6. News media (at least in some parts of the world) are more careful when portraying negative images of the trans community, because they realize they will be taken on publicly about any hate speech or unfair or distorted bias.
7. There is far greater support from within the religious community for trans people than 20 years ago, where it appeared very one sided – now there are inclusive churches and even ordained ministers and priests who are transgender and who enjoy the support of their churches and communities.
8. Transphobic GLBTI organizations are coming increasingly under fire from their own supporters (GLB) because of their discrimination against the T of our community. One main example of this is Stonewall UK and Pride London.
9. Marriage equality (both in the US and here in SA) brings broader acceptance to the concept of trans people marrying and changing gender legally. the concept of this has helped to break the ice and to simplify the process of trans people marrying – regardless of which gender their partners are.
10. The GLBTI movement as a whole in SA pushed for legal recognition of gender change, allowing trans people the “luxury” of changing gender legally and acquiring amended birth certificates. Trans people did not do this alone.
11. Gay, Bi and Trans people themselves now also know more about each other than they did 20 years ago – and are standing closer together as a single community with very similar goals in common – (all except people such as yourself of course, who seem to take delight in dividing our community still further).
Being a more unified community makes our numbers larger – our voice louder – and our power and influence greater.
Be part of the solution, not the problem.
“Can’t you insult better than that, Kathy?”
I try to moderate my response to the level of the audience.
“Yet the transgender seem to exhibit all of the expected female emotions when they read that another transgender is assaulted”
I don’t consider empathy to be a trait limited to either females, males, transgender or transsexual peoples. Indeed – most of the non transgender & non transsexual commenters expressed a similar revulsion to the report.
I don’t think that the alleged victims history of being transsexual would make a difference. Why do you?
Kathy…
No, empathy is not a trait limited to either male or female. If you become emotional when you read of the misfortune of total strangers… any total stranger then good for you.
Christina…and your list:
1. So what?
2. So what?
3. So what?
4. So what?
5. So what?
6. So what?
7. No there isn’t. Transsexuals have been going to church since there was church.
8. So what? Who gives a damn what GLBT organizations think except the homosexual transgender?
9. Post operative transsexuals have been able to marry since legislation allowing one’s birth certificates to be changed…roughly 45 years ago. All the GLBT has succeeded in doing is tying same sex marriage to the legitimate marriage rights heterosexual post operative transsexuals have had for years, resulting in three states (out of 50) who have ruled a post ops marriage invalid.
10. No it didn’t. Most of the laws that regulate a change of birth certificate were done with no organized help from the GLB…virtually all of those laws were passed before the mid 1980’s.
11. So what?
What you don’t realize Christina is most post operative transsexuals, particularly those who are heterosexual don’t want a “louder” voice, and resent those who do. Our position is that we are fine within the present mainstream of society, and we prefer to work in the mainstreams paradyme. We want nothing to do with the GLB and homosexual T whatsoever and despise their putting us under an umbrella we not only don’t belong, but dispise.
“…don’t blame other people if you lack the ability to see more than the gender binary bigots try to enforce on everyone, instead of a diversity.”
As catkisser has said many times, if you, Christina, want to deconstruct your gender then have at it, but when you try to deconstruct mine is when there is a problem. If you want to see gender as some silly transgender sprectrum then have at it…there are a zillion over transvestites, and gender libertines who identify as transgender (most of whom are homosexual) who will line up in agreement. But, regardless of what you say, society nor me see gender that way…men don’t have pussys…women don’t have a penis.
SA ET:
1-6: What’s your point? Do these advances mean nothing to you as a transgender or transexual person? I am sure you would sing another tune were these points absent or not true.
7: Transexuals have been thrown out of church along with gay people as long as there has been church and religious bigotry.
8. If you wish to call yourself a “heterosexual transgender” whatever TF that is, then fine – but you try explaining the difference to a straight bigot
They call us and you and gay people all by the same names – “queer”, “gay”, “sinners”, “sexual deviants”, “pedophiles” etc. They see us all as one group – funny a halfwit like you can’t do the same. Which of course, makes you as bad as they are – a homophobe and a transphobe.
9&10. Really – and did this heroic bunch of trannies who fought for this change of law do so all by themselves? Or did they benefit from the rise of the gay rights movement and have assistance and support from them? In SA this law was only passed in about 1993 – with amendments in the past decade – with full support of the advocacy orgs who support our rights along with theirs.
“What you don’t realize Christina is most post operative transsexuals, particularly those who are heterosexual don’t want a “louder” voice, and resent those who do. Our position is that we are fine within the present mainstream of society, and we prefer to work in the mainstreams paradyme. We want nothing to do with the GLB and homosexual T whatsoever and despise their putting us under an umbrella we not only don’t belong, but dispise.”
Are you so far around the bend that you think you are no longer transgender? being post op does not take your nature away from you, nor your history.
I am a post op transsexual – and I fight for the rights of others, both like me and not – and not to simply disappear back into a closet like a self-loathing cockroach once my own interests have been served.
Who is there to mentor those who follow us if we crawl into dark place and hide, denying who and what we are? How short-sighted and exceedingly selfish!
The solution is to break down barriers – not to enforce them – which you seem to relish. If you wish to indulge in some selfish one dimensional fantasy that you were always female (or male) and never anything else, then that is your problem.
If you are so adamantly “heterosexual” then it is clear to me why you seem to consider yourself “better” than the rest of us. Your prejudice disgusts me.
You sound like some Intersex people who look down on all trannies, regardless of sexual orientation as “giving them a bad name”. People like you undo the work the rest of us do, fighting for your rights as well as ours and in building the community of which you, like it or not, form a part.
Stand up in your church or work place or book club and announce that you are a post-op tranny and then come and tell me how accepted you are. Don’t forget to tell them you are “heterosexual” while you are at it – and when they frog-march you down the aisle, or find an excuse to fire you, remember that the rest of us look down on such as you.
Not because of your “heterosexuality” or your “transexuality” – but because of your cowardice, selfishness and bigotry – and because you side with the bigots – who are your enemies as well as ours.
First things first…Christina.
This is my blog, I own it. If you’d like to comment here you are welcome. If all you’d like to do is call me names via insults because you don’t like what I have to say, then rest assured, sweetpea, I can deal with that as well, quite quickly. It’s your choice.
Now…that’s exactly right, 1-6 don’t mean anything to me. I doubt I would sing a different tune. Those items had no effect at all on my transition.
I don’t have to explain anything to anyone, and have never been discriminated against because of my gender status. I’m not out and proud…I have nothing to be “out” about and think those who are “proud” they are transgender have major psychological issues. The mainstream thinks all transsexuals are idiots because of the continued link of gender with sexual identity by virtue of the GLB and homosexual T…and, no, I don’t like that one damn bit. It wasn’t always that way, but thanks to the GLBT what legitimacy we once had has been eroded by the transgender and GLB activists.
Yes, in fact the birth certificate laws in the US, for the most part were accomplished by small groups working under the radar…it was brilliantly done…and no, it was not accomplished with any support from the gay rights movement, which had barely even come into existence prior to the mid 1980’s…it would be another 10 years before the homosexual movement had any significant stroke to speak of.
I was never “transgender”, and very much resent being labeled by you, on my blog as such. I was transsexual, transitioned, and had GRS…feeling no allegience to the GLBT whatsoever…including mentoring anyone. I’m not ashamed of my history, then again I’m not proud of it either…it is what it is, i.e., history. I pity those who claim to have transitioned, yet still consider themselves transsexual…or, in your case, transgender…instead of just female. By doing so, you, and others like you, relegate yourselves to something less than, or other than, female.
If you feel a need to be “out and proud” and fight for the rights of “others” then great…but what exactly are you fighting for that will change the opinion of a mainstream that thinks the TGs are insane when they speak of gender spectrums, pregnant men, and try to convince the world that a women can have a penis?
I have always felt myself to be female, unfortunately, prior to GRS, I wasn’t…in spite of claiming to be postop, if you feel differently about yourself, or think that is a “fantasy”, then perhaps it is you who have the problem. Genitals do define gender, everyone on the planet but the transgender and some, not by a long shot all, of the GLB.
I hardly see integration into the mainstream as crawling into the dark spaces and hiding. If one is transsexual, a true transsexual, they don’t need any mentoring…if one needs mentoring (or any type of legislation, for that matter) in order to transition, then they should rethink what they are doing. You have no right to call me shortsighted and selfish because I don’t support the transgender construct, much less aid others in supporting such rubish.
If my heterosexuality disgusts you, I assure you it pales in comparison to the disgust I have for yet another “lesbian” post op male-to-female…can you say AGP, Christina?
I don’t look down on anyone, on the other hand I also don’t support the transgender “gender spectrum”, not to mention rude people who come on my blog insulting me because I don’t buy into their idea of what a good, card carrying member of the transgender should buy into. As for the “work” you and others have done?…it was not done at my request nor on my behalf. You may have bought into the fact that you are part of a “community”, but believe me, it’s no community I belong to. In fact, it is that “community” you claim I am a part of whether I want to be or not that is the issue. You can colonize whomever you want to, Christina, but not me. Keep up your support of the transgender construct, it seems to fit you to a “T”.
I don’t stand up and announce my gender status anywhere to anyone…why should I? People like you, who go around with “TRANSGENDER” tattooed across their forehead, have issues, psychological issues you can’t seem to shake…no normal person is defined (nor wants to be defined) night and day…every second of their life…to the point of activism…by their gender status, natal or otherwise, and certainly neither do I. If you want to be “Christina, the transgendered, less than…other than female” then knock yourself out. As for me, Susan works just fine.
No one is my enemy. Nor am I a coward, selfish, and a bigot because I choose to go about my life in a normal fashion rather that wear my past/present gender status on my shirtsleeve, choosing not to let my past define me.
Now, I’ve responded to your comment, with much restraint I think, but I will tell you once more…if you’d like to come here and debate with either myself or other commenters, you are welcome. But if you just want to come in here and insult me, on my own blog, because YOU are transgender I will stop it. I don’t and won’t allow anyone to do that to you, but for damn sure am not going to stand still for you to come in here and do it to me.
Again, that is your choice.
(DELETED SA-ET 07-05-09)
Christina, when you resort to comparisons to the Nazis you effectively lose whatever argument you are engaged in. Really, was that called for?
And is is clear that you miss a very important point. Some here do not identify as transgender and we do not appreciate you insistence on forcing that label on us. If you wish to identify as transgender, that is your right, but please recognize that many do not identify that way and imposing that term on us is viewed as an insult.
Christina, allow me to also respond to your list.
1. What you would consider fact, most would consider fantasy. Yes, people are more aware of “transgender” and a lot of them are totally repulsed by the silliness of the whole thing.
2. The term “gender identity” has become so distorted as to be effectively meaningless. Taken to its logical extreme, it effectively erases gender and sexual distinctions, which the vast majority of humanity disapproves of.
3. And yet, when push comes to shove, “transgender” people are still the first tossed under the bus. Just because some TG activists are willing to suck up to the LGB types does not make them leaders. In fact, many of them become embarrasments for the LGB types.
4. Many? You mean like that joke of a mayor of a small town who runs around in drag? There are not that many TGs in public office. And yes, TGs hold positions in companies, but not high positions in major companies.
5. Sorry, but no, France removed transsexualism from the list of mental illnesses, NOT “transgender.” They are not the same thing. Many, if not most transsexuals do not identify as “transgender.”
6. And yet, the transgender blogs are full of complaints about imagine slights, like referring to a person who simply changes their clothing, and nothing else, as a male. Of course this violates GLAAD’s insane claim that surgery is not required to change sex.
7. Again, transsexuals have gone to churches for years. Sometimes openly, sometimes not. Of course, I suspect the concept that someone might not rub people’s noses in the fact that they are “trans” is lost on you.
8. This one seems to contradict your point in 3. Besides, I am neither lesbian, gay, or bisexual, so, while I have friend who are, and I support many of their efforts to win fair treatment, I do not wish to be identified as part of their group. And I generally don’t care what they think of me aside from seeing me as what I am, a woman.
9. Actually quite the opposite is true. In three well known cases, people who had changed their birth certificates have had their marriages rendered as invalid because of the association of transsexual with transgender and therefore being part of the LGB community. And as a response to one of those cases a nutcase of an attorney in Texas invited post-op transsexuals who identify as lesbian to come and marry their WBW partners, which effectively resulted in Texas authorities shrugging and saying, “Yep, they’s just men who had their privates cut off marrying women…so we don’t care.”
10. No, the ability to change one’s birth certificate, after sex reassignment surgery, was most won in the years before LGBT activism became widespread. These changes were won before transsexuals were linked with the imaginary transgender community. And these rights were not remotely of interest to the LGB types, as they had no effect on them. Now, some nutcases are demanding the right to legally change their sex (gender is immutable and is fixed at birth) without actually having surgery. Such efforts are outrageous.
11. Again, I am not a part of your community. I don’t care whether it is divided or not. What I do care about is that I am not lumped in with people I have nothing in common with.
So, the bottom line is, the LGBT community has done nothing for transsexuals except to add to the discrediting of our identities.
Let me make this perfectly clear. I am a post-op transsexual, though I prefer the term “survivor of Harry Benjamin Syndrome” and I have never been, am not, and will never be “transgender.” I am a woman, nothing more, nothing less.
“No one is my enemy. Nor am I a coward, selfish, and a bigot because I choose to go about my life in a normal fashion rather than wear my past/present gender status on my shirtsleeve, choosing not to let my past define me.”
While I agree with your entire post, I felt that this sums it all up very well. I am always a bit puzzled by those who go through surgery but who continue to maintain strong links to their past.
Christina,
1). “Far more people know what transgender is in recent times than they did 20 years ago” ……..
Yes and fewer people know what true transsexualism is, and the difference between them. Of course, you will say that they are the same, which merely shows your lgbt affiliation.
2.”GLBTI activism has given us a louder voice than we ever had before.”
Oh yes, so load that everyone can hear you screaming from the gay balcony further solidifying the notion that transgenders are loud gay men.
3. “3. Transgender people play a more prominent role in GLBTI activism, many activists are trans – and give us a voice in our group affairs and matters.”
No Dear .. you ARE gay! The trans part is no different to being a drag artist for most of you.
4. “Many trans people now hold public office and positions in companies and in society – and even in political parties and GLBTI advocacy groups – something almost unheard of 20 years ago.”
Really? I suppose you never heard of Renee Richards then. She was a physician and a great tennis player. Before your time I guess. I have owned several companies througout the years, all of which I ran while both pre-and post op, many dating back to the 70’s. Ya see Christina, back in the day we just were not out there yelling that we were out and proud.
5.”France is one of the first large countries in the world to remove transgender from its catalog of mental disorders – an indication of a future trend.”
Now that I didn’t know, nor do I care.
6. “News media (at least in some parts of the world) are more careful when portraying negative images of the trans community, because they realize they will be taken on publicly about any hate speech or unfair or distorted bias.”
I disagree, it’s actually gotten worse. The media coined the term sex change, and if you go back 30 years you can read the media reports of people like jorgenson, richards and April Ashley, where they were not trashed by the media and were fairly reported as medical transsexuals. In fact, a lot of the rights quietly passed for transsexuals were in no small part due to the media’s bent to giving trans stories a medical edge rather than a homosexual edge.
7. “There is far greater support from within the religious community for trans people than 20 years ago, where it appeared very one sided – now there are inclusive churches and even ordained ministers and priests who are transgender and who enjoy the support of their churches and communities.”
Bullshit. Those ordained ministers and churches are not part of the well known and family attended mainstream religions. Plenty of us attended church back then without raising the ire of the fundamentalists. You can thank the GLB for that.
8. “Transphobic GLBTI organizations are coming increasingly under fire from their own supporters (GLB) because of their discrimination against the T of our community. One main example of this is Stonewall UK and Pride London.”
Whats with the “I” .. are you now assimilating the Intersex without its permission? Intersexed people are not primarily gay and you have no right to include them in your umbrella.
9. “Marriage equality (both in the US and here in SA) brings broader acceptance to the concept of trans people marrying and changing gender legally. the concept of this has helped to break the ice and to simplify the process of trans people marrying – regardless of which gender their partners are.”
Marriage equality means exactly this .. ALL TRANSGENDER PEOPLE ARE GAY IF THEY MARRY A MALE. Did you think you were suddenly going to be considered a REAL heterosexual couple?
10. “The GLBTI movement as a whole in SA pushed for legal recognition of gender change, allowing trans people the “luxury” of changing gender legally and acquiring amended birth certificates. Trans people did not do this alone.”
Key words here “amended birth certificates” . Your GAY ! Get used to it.
11. “Gay, Bi and Trans people themselves now also know more about each other than they did 20 years ago – and are standing closer together as a single community with very similar goals in common”
No they don’t, they only know your gay. They have no freaking idea what a heterosexual transsexual is .. and neither do you according to the posts you have been making here.
So Jennifer,
1. Do you feel silly about being transgender or transsexual? That’s the impression I get from your comment. If so then it is no wonder you seem ashamed to be what you are. Poor you.
2. yadda, yadda, yadda…”which the vast majority of humanity disapproves of.” – incuding you, you sweet little hypocrite, you
3. “”transgender” people are still the first tossed under the bus.” yeah, sure – which is why somehow when we make our displeasure heard – such as with the ENDA fiasco in the USA – people listen. I detect much self-loathing in you – shame. Which is why we should be a part of such groups and even lead and guide them instead of sitting in a pathetic little heap crying because “nobody loves us”. Boohoo.
4. There are several mayors around the world who are trans, not just the one you refer to. And there are other officials in public life, and politics, and religion – and rights advocacy, some pretty high up in GLBTI orgs too. The offensive reference to “drag” you make indicates to me that perhaps you are one of us who like me is lucky enough to pass as female without the inconvenience of looking like a stereotype. How elitist of you.
5. Oh honey, shame – were you perhaps left out? Transgender as a term includes transsexuals, deal with it.
6. Are you sure you are really transsexual? Because what you just said here makes no sense. I am sure you would feel different while transitioning if you were persistently referred to as “he”, even if you hadn’t yet started HRT and wore womens clothing – or were forced to use a male toilet. More elitist BS. BTW, GLAAD is correct in terms of legal gender description, which can be changed in several countries around the world without surgery – or complete surgery.
7. Honey I know some people who were rejected by their church simply for admitting they were trans or for starting transition and going in role. Some other churches accepted them afterwards, but not those ones. What planet have you been living on?
8. This point seems to echo the ignorant view point that a lesbian is ‘not a woman’ – and therefore in your opinion it seems clear that a trans woman who is in a lesbian relationship is not deserving of being called a woman. In my view, this puts you on the same level as a heterosexual and heterosexist bigot – beneath contempt.
9. That’s why I live in SA – with a more humanitarian law – at least until people like you help idiots like the ACDP and FPI strip all our rights from the Constitution to make it more bigot friendly.
10. “…Such efforts are outrageous.” Why? Because you have a fragile ego? Because you feel that anyone who finds out your dirty little secret will wonder what you have under the hood? You sound like a Republican.
11. “Again, I am not a part of your community. I don’t care whether it is divided or not. What I do care about is that I am not lumped in with people I have nothing in common with.”Let’s see now. You had GRS, presumably – which makes you a tranny – which means we have that much in common. Forever and always. (SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09) Yes you do care – which is why you are doing your little bit inciting rabble against the trans community you think you are somehow better than – and helping to widen these divisions.
“So, the bottom line is, the LGBT community has done nothing for transsexuals except to add tothe discrediting of our identities.” Keep believing that if you will – but if you prefer to hide in a dark corner pretending to be better than them – and us – what makes you worthy of our help? And before you say you don’t need our help, bear in mind that without out and open people, whether gay or trans, you would be even MORE afraid of being outed than you are now.
If you won’t get off your tranny ass and get your hands dirty to help fight your own battles, what entitles you to any consideration? The more advances the gay rights movement makes – with our assistance and input – the more gains we make too.
Yes, “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” – sounds like that “ex-gay” crap they peddle on the web these days. If you were born a woman, where are your baby photos of you in your little pink bonnet and baby-grow? I am post op myself, but I was never born female. Did you have to shower with the boys in gym class because you had a wee-wee or did you go with the girls? I was born into a male body and a male life. I was a female spirit in a male body. And I had surgery to make mind and body match up. I think the one major difference between us and you is that we do not look down on others – and neither do we deny facts and try to alter reality.
“No one is my enemy. Nor am I a coward, selfish, and a bigot because I choose to go about my life in a normal fashion rather than wear my past/present gender status on my shirtsleeve, choosing not to let my past define me.” – Your statements here make you mine. (SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09)
—
Leigh,
1. “true transsexualism”? so what is that exactly, somebody who changes physical gender perhaps and means it? You mean perhaps somebody who does so and then considers themselves “heterosexual” and not “homosexual”? I presume you think people like me who have GRS and then get involved in “lesbian” relationships were “just kidding” and aren’t “true” transexuals? How very enlightening. What a load of elitist rubbish.
2. How about loud enough that today even the UN has “gender identity” and the interests of trans people included in every submission, policy and proposition it makes wrt “sexual orientation”? Loud enough that when trans rights may be forgotten by some GLBTI group leaders, that their supporters bring it to their attention? That includes us and our issues in a community that actually welcomes us and our humanity. That’s loud enough for me.
3. “No Dear .. you ARE gay! The trans part is no different to being a drag artist for most of you.” (SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09) Firstly, were I gay as you claim – you must be really far gone to think I would take it as an insult. Secondly, the very basics of gender identity and sexual orientation define the two as separate and independent concepts. Did they explain anything to you before you earned your tranny wheels, darling?
4. So I guess while you were “running companies” “back in the day” you were nicely protected from the rest of us “common rabble” by your money and independence? Lucky you. I guess you are right – you are not one of us. You never earned that right.
5. which is exactly why you could make a comment like this: “Now that I didn’t know, nor do I care.” (SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09)
6. Rule 1 – you can’t control the media. No matter what spin you try to put on news or facts, the religious right and its sympathizers will always put their own spin on it. All you can do is continue to put the facts out there.
7. Really? How about the Anglican minister? And the ordained minister in the USA of the Methodist church? That mainstream enough for you?
8. “Whats with the “I” .. are you now assimilating the Intersex without its permission? Intersexed people are not primarily gay and you have no right to include them in your umbrella.” Anyone who does not fit the traditional gender/sexual binary fits under the umbrella. I didn’t do it on my own – I think you’ve been out of touch so long you don’t even know what’s going on out there – (SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09) ?
9. “Marriage equality means exactly this .. ALL TRANSGENDER PEOPLE ARE GAY IF THEY MARRY A MALE. Did you think you were suddenly going to be considered a REAL heterosexual couple?” Marriage equality means marriage equality. So in other words sweety pie – you think if YOU marry a man that makes you gay? I guess by your own warped definition it does. Oops.
10. Once again, being called gay is not an insult – wake up and join the 21st century and the rest of humanity.
11. “No they don’t, they only know your gay. They have no freaking idea what a heterosexual transsexual is .. and neither do you according to the posts you have been making here.” No, I don’t know what a “heterosexual transsexual” is – I never met one that wouldn’t go into a “lesbian” relationship if they got lonely enough – (SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09) – and hatred when I read it.
(SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09)
You break down the efforts of others like you to make things better for all of us as a whole. No, you didn’t ask them to – but you will be all too pleased to reap the benefits of their efforts despite your lack of appreciation. You are despicable.
(SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09)
Yes I am a dinosaur dear, and I am successful in spite of the fact that I never asked anyone to move over and make room for me.
You have never met a heterosexual women of transsexual history because you have always been homosexual and considered those you met to be gay men in denial.
You were a homosexual male as a boy, one of those flamers that was totally annoying, grew up in the gay clubs doing drag (as attested to by your photographs), and decided that it would be cool to add a vagina to your repertoire of female parts.
You are so anti-female that you even stole a female identity to prove you could do it outside of drag clubs. The difference between us is that while I and others move toward being female amongst other females, happy to be accepted as just another member of the female binary, you and your kind have something to prove.
You despise transsexuals just as your hero Virginia Prince did. You despise them because they are accepted into the female binary, where you can only pass into the female binary, adored by Lesbians, made fun of by the gay men you were once part of, and never quite able to make the real transition to just being female without the need to push your way in.
Oh yes dear, I have met your kind the world over, loud mouthed little gay boys that put down transsexual women, constantly feeling the need to tell them they are “really gay men in denial”, not quite understanding why they fit in with other females, why they don’t just fess up to being gay.
Well honey, it’s because we are not gay, never have been. Oh yes, from time to time we may visit your bars and your clubs, always a fun time to be had, just as straight women and men do the same, but the difference is that Gay Men and Lesbians in those clubs know who is and isn’t gay. Some understand it, they “get it”, others want to ridicle and poke fun at, always ready to point out that they are more glamorous, more desireable, able to command the attention of every male in the room.
Yes, you have met heterosexual transsexuals, you where one of the first in the bar to point them out, to move in and examine, to make inuendo against and couch insults in jokes, to be shunned and disregarded, to then move away to the comfort of your admirer’s where you made fun of the “tranny” in the corner trying to pass as a woman, not wanting your company. Oh yes, and your here doing the same thing.
Well dear, you have at it. You can have them all and the lesbians too. I will keep my dignity and consider myself above you, apart from you and your gender bending homosexual kind, despite what you would want me to be, you can play in the sandpit on your own.
(SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09)
You hate gay people and you look down on them.
You hate transgender people – and you hate the fact that you are also transgender.
You hate transsexuals who have the freedom and the flexibility to love other people regardless of gender.
You find it necessary to distinguish between “hetero” and “homosexual” transexuals – and you admit to despising them and all of the above.
(SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09) I’m glad I’m not one of your “transgender friends” – because clearly you aren’t much of a friend to anyone but yourself!
An intersex friend of mine had this to say (SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09):
“Our opponents within the community still suffer from internalized self-hatred that comes from believing the lies embodied in social stereotypes. They are to be pitied not condemned. Only by continuing to change the views of society at large can we help relieve the suffering of those who hate themselves.”
I couldn’t agree more, but I think I will save the pity for the time when dinosaurs such as you are long dead and buried and can do no more harm to the living.
People like you who think they are too good to be included in the same group with us really suffer from overinflated egos. For one thing you are no better than us – in fact your bigotry places you beneath us.
In cases like yours, education will have no effect, because when it comes to being trans you know pretty much what we know – you just hate us – and everyone else anyway.
How small you are.
(SA-ET DELETED 07-06-09)
You have at least as much ‘dignity’ as you have honor – none.
Sand pit, burial pit – same thing, just a matter of timing. Tick tock, old girl.
Tata
Nailed It!
Christina,
1. Again, I am not transgender. Never have been, never will be. As to being ashamed of being born transsexual, I see no reason to be ashamed of something that was not a choice.
2. Clearly, you just don’t get it.
3. No, I am not self-loathing. That is a classic fallacy by those who wish to impose their own feelings on others. No, I simply reject your paradigm.
4. The mayor I refer to makes no claim to being a woman, and makes a big deal of the fact that his is a man who dresses as a woman. Now, if you associate yourself with that, that is your right. I don’t, any more than any other woman does. If that makes me elitist, then over half the human race is, ironically, elitist.
5. I am dealing with it. I don’t agree that transsexuals should be included under the artifical political/social construct of transgender. Are you having trouble following things here?
6. GLAAD is not talking about “legal gender.” GLAAD is saying, in effect, that we wasted time and money having surgery since we could just call ourselves women and that should be enough. That is what you are accepting when you call yourself transgender. That is what I am rejecting. And I disagree, strongly, with laws that allow people to change their legal sex without surgery.
7. Before I became an Episcopalian, I was a Southern Baptist, which is one of the most conservative denominations in the U.S. And before that, when I first transitioned, I went to an independent, fundamentalist Bible church, where many knew my situation, and were accepting. Of course, that was before people like you started acting so foolishly. But that is another discussion. Oh, and I became an Episcopalian because I find it more in line with my personal theology.
8. I don’t know how you got that bit of idiocy out of what I said. You really need to work on your reading skills.
9. As a straight woman, I oppose any effort to deny me the right to marry the man of my choice. And, I happen to support same-sex marriage. In fact, since I live in California, I have several friends who were married before the law was changed.
10. So, why did you have surgery? You clearly think that your plumbing does not matter. Sorry, but males have penises, and females don’t. If you don’t understand that…well, that would explain a lot.
11. Again, you suffer from the fallacy that those who do not wish to be associate with behavior they do not engage in are somehow ashamed. And even though I would bet that you would have a fit if someone did not respect your “identity” you insist on denying that to others.
Oh, and just so you know…the term “tranny” is considered highly insulting. Not, I imagine, that you care. Then again, I suspect you probably get a bit of a thrill from it.
Now, clearly you have no concept of what the term “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” means. As to your claim to have been born a “female spirit in a male body,” I have my doubts. I suspect you just found that crossdressing did not give you the same thrill it used to, and you decided to take the next step. You seem to delight in the fact that you were born male. I accept that fact that i was, but I have put that behind me, and have not need to dwell there. That, more than anything else, is what divides us.
Sorry, did y’all say something?
I’m so busy playing with all my dirty “homosexual transsexual” friends in my sand pit that I couldn’t hear you. Perhaps you trannies should try shouting louder – I don’t understand idiot. I would invite you in, but there is simply no room left – you know how it is. So sorry.
Toodles
Christina, I will ask you again to stop the useless name calling. You are welcome to debate here, but the name calling, just for the sake of it just isn’t going to happen.
I’ve never banned anyone from commenting here, and though I have deleted portions of a post now and again, as I have done with yours, even that is few and far between. No one is bound to see things the way you see things, nor are you bound to see things the way others who post here see them. A quick review of the comments here will quickly show anyone who is inclined to look that there have been many disagreements. But, those who have posted here present their view without calling others the names that you have resorted to, names that in no way add to the debate.
You feel strongly about this; I think everyone can appreciate that. Further, you are certainly not alone in holding the position you do…there is a whole transgender movement who feels exactly like you do. However, very, very, very few of those in that transgender and GLBT movement fall into the extremely small percentage of that make up true transsexuals. Most who comment here do fall into that group. Quite frankly it is difference between us and everyone else. We don’t feel we are elitist, it’s just the way it is…if you want to refer to us as elitist that’s fine with me, though I don’t know any true transsexual who feels they are. We don’t want legislation guaranteeing us any special rights; we have done just fine working withing the mainstream for years without any special rights. We don’t feel entitled to anything that we don’t already have as productive members of the mainstream. For the most part, we are successful…many of us are in long term heterosexual relationships. Most of us transitioned long before you did, feeling the same way then as we do now. We have integrated into the mainstream and want nothing more than to be left alone, but have awakened to see the transgender movement has colonized our identity and we don’t like it. So, just as you feel strongly about your position, we feel the same way about ours. Honestly, I don’t expect you to see our point of view and perspective for you are simply not like us. Historically, those who are not true transsexuals have way more problems with us, than we have with those who are not true transsexuals…and in many ways the exchange here has illustrated that. The transgender have no problem telling us what we are – you have done so ad nauseum – but when true transsexuals object it seems to drive the transgender such as yourself absolutely insane. It’s some how understandable, an issue of the transgender not knowing what they don’t know…how can they? they are not true transsexuals.
You only know what your rather limited knowledge is since you transitioned a few years ago…while many of us have seen the legitimacy of transsexualism torn away over decades of “progress”…progress that has served only the homosexual movement and the gender variant that make up the transgender movement. A movement, though legitimate, is indeed an embarassment to many who are true transsexuals…an embarassment not because of their motives and goals, but because of their capturing the identities of true transsexuals within it in such a way that the mantra is “we are all the same”, when clearly true transsexuals, those of us who comprise just a very miniscule fraction of 1% of the population, are very much quite different.
Argue you position if you like; argue your position forcefully if you like, but because we hold a position that is different than yours does not grant you a free pass to come here and insult anyone.
I am asking you again, politely, to stop the useless insults in your comments.
“Useless insults”?
You mean like bragging about despising the community of which you and I – and your ‘friends’ here both form a part?
Or that you despise folks like me for being proud of who I am and my accomplishments as a transsexual woman and as part of the transgender group?
How about intimating that some trannies (like you , presumably) are somehow “true” transsexuals and that those like me are not?
Or for intimating that you folks consider calling me gay an actual insult?
How about the casual disregard and sheer contempt you girls show for everything the GLBTI rights movement has fought for – and achieved – since day one?
Would that be the kind of “useless insult” you refer to?
Because as insults go, they are pretty darn “useless”.
Well, that isn’t the only useless thing on this site.
You know what I’m referring to when I make that request, calling the people you are responding to “insufferable assholes” is pretty much a useless insult.
Though I dispise GLBT politics, I think each of us of whom you are referring to is on the record more than enough to prove we don’t dispise anyone in particular within the GLBT at all. With that said, once again you are trying to include me, and the others of whom have responded to you, in a “community” we are not a part of, never have been a part of, and never will.
I don’t think anyone here dispises you as an individual…it is your politics and insults that are the issue. Tempers flare; that is why I have tried to put a calmer tone on things.
If you were a true transsexual, personally I don’t think you would hold the positions that you do. I don’t question your identity, nor do I personally question anyones identity. I do question the transgender’s quest to equate me in the same group as crossdressers, gender queer, etc. as if we are all the same…when clearly we are not.
Your sexuality, or anyone elses sexuality is not important to me…it’s none of my business and I could care less. The percentage of post op MtoF who are sexually attracted to females far exceeds the mainstream; there is something wrong with that picture. There is a essay here that holds my opinion on the issue. Either way, that is your business and not mine.
Most true transsexuals indeed have nothing but contempt for GLBT politics. The GLBT has stripped us of a legitimacy we once had, furthered the stereotype that we are nothing but homosexual men who have gone to the extreme of having GRS, and drawn attention to us…attention we did not ask for and very much don’t want. We had a gender issue, we transitioned, we have had GRS, have integrated into the mainstream and now we don’t want any more attention drawn to us than is absolutely necessary.
I edited my last comment, but once again, please know you are welcome to post here and argue you point forcefully, but try to hold off on the personal “insufferable asshole” type insults. Everyone who post here has been called a bigot more times than you can count…as well, transphobic, homophobic, suffering from internalized self-hatred (one of my personal favorites, a transgender mantra for sure), self loathing, etc…it rolls off our back like water off of a duck…a better tact, is to simply rebutt the point…at least there is a chance that way.
Dear SA-ET.
I am all for friendliness and courtesy, but I do tend to go a little wonko when I see unbridled hatred and bigotry coming toward me at full gallop.
I never said we were all the same. I said we were all part of one broader community, which is as much out of political expedience as it is for strength in numbers. The bigot mindset divides society into us and them – and it certainly doesn’t include ‘us’ with ‘them’. It makes perfect sense to stick together because politically at least, if not socially, we have the same goals of equality, tolerance and acceptance?
As a section of the broader community we transsexuals are far too few in number to achieve all this by ourselves.
I am sure you may see the sense in this? Well, I’m not entirely sure, as some of you seem insistent on being on your own, all isolated like, and some kind of “heterosexual transsexual” elite complete with secret handshakes.
FYI, gender identity and sexual orientation are separate issues, which means that who I choose to be in a relationship with does not mean that I am a “true” transsexual or “not” – what defines that is my gender identity. As a transsexual, I would expect you to know this.
As I mentioned before, VERY few transsexuals I have come across insist they are strictly heterosexual in nature – and all of the ones I know have eventually taken lesbian partners because, well gosh darn it, getting beat up by the fellas who find out the hard way you have a prostate gland/penis stub or an ex-wife with two kids and alimony problems is kinda hard on the medical aid scheme and loneliness is even more of a bitch than I am.
I also don’t think that because I stand with gay, bi and intersex people and fight with them against the very same bigots who would see people such as us persecuted along with all of them, means that I am “not a “true” transsexual”.
Quite frankly, I really do not care what certain people – bigots in particular – think about me – I know who and what I am and that is what matters to me.
I think it is a very big fool indeed who is a gay man and who has GRS just for a lark. In fact I am sure this occurs very, very rarely. It is also easy to see your remark as a blatant anti-gay slur.
I understand that not everyone is advocacy material and that not everyone can handle the pressure of being out and open – this is not the issue I have addressed here. What I have found exceptionally disturbing is the fact that while you are “closeted” you still see room to feel smug and superior to others who may be obvious and do not have that luxury – and also to viciously attack and even to mock them.
“Most true transsexuals indeed have nothing but contempt for GLBT politics” I am sorry – but where do you get your “facts” on this? Have you performed an opinion poll of “true” transsexuals? Or have you just labelled those who agree with you “true transsexuals”?
I have never seen a check box on any online forms asking people if they are “true” transsexuals – or if they are only “part time” or “just kidding”.
If you are so unhappy with GLBTI politics, then surely the best approach is to get involved and to change GLBTI politics from the inside? It will not get better for us by itself. And as the old saying goes, you cannot break an omelet without making eggs – no, wait – anyway I think you get the idea.
“Your sexuality, or anyone elses sexuality is not important to me…it’s none of my business and I could care less.” Funny, my sexuality seemed very much the business of this forum all day long
Not that it bothers me much – I am used to death threats, so what I received here was rather tame and even amusing by comparison. But what does bother me is that the contempt visible in the way sexuality and diversity was addressed is so like the rhetoric and propaganda and hate speech coming from the groups who hate all GLBTI – regardless of whether we – or you – like each other or not that it is uncanny.
I would expect sister transsexuals to possess far more understanding and compassion than what was demonstrated here. Or not, as the case may be.
“GLBT has stripped us of a legitimacy we once had” – I’m sorry, did I miss something? When did we ever have “legitimacy” outside of anything other than a medical manual or a science lab? Ever since the first recorded improvised GRS operation was performed in Paris 1909, we have been spectacles of curiosity and viewed as “freaks”. The common perception has always been that we are gay, even today – and the only thing which will change this is education and fact. Sorry to point out the obvious, but attacking each other because we don’t like how the ignorant masses see us won’t change that.
“Everyone who post here has been called a bigot more times than you can count…” That is quite strange – because the only people who have ever called me a “bigot” before are religious fundamentalist Christians who attack me for defending the pink community against them.
Perhaps you should ask yourselves what you are doing wrong? I would suggest that you are attacking the wrong people – you should be taking on the bigots and making life harder for them instead of doing their work for them. They get enough money from church donations and government grants as it is – you should let them work for it themselves.
In the end, it is very difficult to fade away completely as you suggest. For one thing, everyone who knows us, knows our past and our nature. Moving to the other side of the planet or faking your own death and having facial reconstruction to look like somebody else isn’t always an option.
You may view being transsexual as something to be ashamed of, but this is simply the result of enforced stereotyping caused by years of social stigma and misinformation and conservatism. I am not ashamed – I have done nothing wrong in being transgender. And attitudes around the world are changing, because far more transsexuals are now open about being transsexual than in the past.
Pretending that we are and always have been what we never were simply does not make it true. It is simply trading one prison cell for another.
I like being out and open best. Why? Because I’m free.
Drop the bigotry claim. It’s way overused and often used as a way to silence anyone that does not hold the same view as another. It’s also tiresome. I don’t deny you the right to believe whatever you want to believe, I only deny you the right to assume that I should believe what you believe. If you try to force your belief on me then I will respond with a bigoted attitude.
We are NOT all part of one community. You maybe need that, I for one do not.
We transsexuals never needed to achieve equality, tolerance OR acceptance before the transgender hoards came screaming out of internet chat rooms into the public eye. Believe it or not, most people didn’t go around assuming the transsexual menace lived next door, was teaching their kids, flying the jet they were on or for that matter sitting in the next office typing out sales reports. Most people in the world had never met, or knew anyone that had met or had contact with transsexuals. Didn’t mean we were not out there, we were, we just didn’t go around advertising it, playing it out on tv talk shows and lobbying on capital hill.
Everything bad that has come down since the transgender revolution has been a direct result of transgenders that had no hope of ever assimilating into their target gender, getting all load mouthed about it, assimilating transsexuals into the GLB ghetto, and bringing dissrespect to transsexuals that were quietly woodworking with mainstream.
You are a relativly new transitioner, I have been so for going on 30 years, and yes that makes me a dinosaur, but it also gives me a history and a knowledge that you cannot buy. You stand out there calling for a fight with mainstream and all you will succeed in doing is alianating all of us further from the target gender we set out to join.
Go ahead and tell everyone about your gender past if you wish but you best understand that public acceptance and tollerance is widely tied to acceptable public behaviour, and while many of those folks will tell you to your face that they are cool with your gender switch, the moment you turn your back they will be gossiping to their friends who have no need to be polite since they are not talking to you directly.
Yes it all sounds wonderfull, but it isn’t. Time has taught me to keep my mouth shut for some very important reasons; 1. nobody really wants to know because it’s not polite to discuss sexual matters; 2. if they do know they will never consider you anything more than your birth gender (close friends & lovers or relatives aside), 3. what people know and what they might guess are two very different things, so why confirm it for them.
Pretending has nothing to do with it. If you know you where a boy, even if you still are a boy with GRS, what in the hell are you doing going around trying to be a woman for? Thats not Transsexuality, it’s transvestism at best, crossdressing at worst.
You are not free. You only think you are.
I don’t agree with even one thing you have said, Christina. Knock yourself out.
Christina, I don’t think anyone here depises the “transgender community.” I know I don’t. But, I also don’t share their political and social goals, nor do I consider myself to be a member of said community. I have no desire to do away with binary gender, I do not believe that one can simply declare oneself to be a different sex, and I don’t at all care for the damage they have done to people like me while demanding that I accept them as my “community.”
Now, I agree, you do not appear to be a true, or classic transsexual. That is based on the comments you have made here, and the attitudes that you exhibit. It is possible that we are wrong, but you really don’t vibe as such.
No, when we have responded to your claims with facts and reason you have resorted to name calling and intimidation. Using club words like “bigot” only serve to prove that you have no real arguments, and that you know this. You spouted the party line, and we refuted it, so you fall back on the insults. Now, if the shoe were on the other foot, and this were a typical LGBt blog, we would be banned, and you would be the hero of the day. Instead, while you have pushed the envelope, you have not been banned. I imagine that irony is lost on you.
Might I suggest that you open your mind for a change, and maybe consider what you have read here. Spouting the silliness you read from the gender fascists will get you nowhere.
Dear Leigh:
“Drop the bigotry claim. It’s way overused and often used as a way to silence anyone that does not hold the same view as another. It’s also tiresome” – It also happens to be true. Sorry.
But if you stop acting like a bigot, I will stop calling you one.
“We are NOT all part of one community.” – funny, the bigots campaigning around the world against us all seem to think we are. Strange that you don’t. No – you would rather alienate the only allies we have in a very real “culture war”.
In all honesty I really don’t care whether you support the community or not – what I do care about is that you are attacking it – which incites others to attack it – and that makes building it up so much harder.
“We transsexuals never needed to achieve equality, tolerance OR acceptance before…” – no of course not, people just naturally welcomed you with open arms – which is why you found it necessary to hide in a closet a slightly different shade of ‘gay’ for the last 30 years…?
“Everything bad that has come down since the transgender revolution has been a direct result of transgenders that had no hope of ever assimilating into their target gender, getting all load mouthed about it, assimilating transsexuals into the GLB ghetto, and bringing dissrespect to transsexuals that were quietly woodworking with mainstream.” – THIS is what you think makes you better than other people? You think this gives you the right to call yourselves “true transsexuals”? Instead of criticizing and attacking other TS sisters who have the same feelings and experiences as you in terms of gender issues, you should show them compassion. They cannot help not being passable – just as you are plain LUCKY to be passable. The closest thing to sense I can make out in that jumble of venomous commentary is a matter of timing – you just happened to get there first. Ergo, should you have had to transition later, you might not have because it would have required more courage to?
“You are a relativly new transitioner, I have been so for going on 30 years, and yes that makes me a dinosaur, but it also gives me a history and a knowledge that you cannot buy.”
- yes, I am new to this game compared to you. I can tell by your outdated and unrealistic views – filled with bitterness. I have only been openly trans for ten years, but thankfully those younger than both of us are far more accepting of diversity than you. And that is the way of the future.
“Time has taught me to keep my mouth shut” – That’s funny – time has taught me the opposite – that silence gives consent – and that people walk over those who do not speak out.
“1. nobody really wants to know because it’s not polite to discuss sexual matters;” – such topics regularly come up in casual conversation – and in any case, talking about sexuality is “not polite”, but indulging in character assassination is?
“2. if they do know they will never consider you anything more than your birth gender (close friends & lovers or relatives aside),” – not in my experience. Where I work I regularly get straight male attention, even though my past is general knowledge. The women accept me as one of them also.
In any case, I don’t care whether people think of me as trans, as long as they address me correctly and with courtesy. Everybody at my workplace (300 plus people in a military environment) have known me since my transition 10 years ago – and since I am so open – I have helped educate them about transsexuality and many of them are now far more open minded and accepting. And yes, even some of those who made death threats in the beginning now wave and smile at me sheepishly in passing.
“3. what people know and what they might guess are two very different things, so why confirm it for them.” – education is how we change people’s minds. If I can help show people that trans people are not a threat to them – or their children – that we are not freaks, and if it means being out and known – then so be it.
You mentioned passability as important earlier – yes it is important if you hope to disappear into a black hole of anonymity after transition. As you pointed out before, there are those who are not as fortunate as us who will never pass – and from them the general public develops the stereotypes you so despise.
Now, consider this: By disappearing from the scene as a passable trans woman, are you not adding to the stereotype? By this I mean that the general public do not know that the beautiful passable woman they are drooling over in front of them is as much a transsexual as the obvious example they have just made a mockery of over sherry and giggles?
If more of us are out and known, will we not reduce and eventually expunge such a stereotype?
I will leave you with that thought.
“You are not free. You only think you are.” – That’s what counts – and makes it true.
—
SA-ET
“I don’t agree with even one thing you have said, Christina. Knock yourself out.” – My, my, hate sure gives you that burning feeling in your gut, doesn’t it?
Your loss, not mine.
—–
JJ:
“the damage they have done to people like me while demanding that I accept them as my “community.” – Damage? What damage? I don’t think it compares to the damage you guys do by introducing an unstable element to an already unstable equation.
As if it isn’t bad enough that young trans people have to run the gauntlet of bigots nailing them from the heterosexist perspective, now they also have to worry about some of their own kind screwing them over as well. Bravo.
There is no such thing as a “true” or even a “classic” transsexual. You are either a transsexual or you aren’t – and if you are a transsexual, you are either a type “A” or a type “B” transsexual. Type “A” manifesting signs of transgender bias from early age and following through from an early age. Type “B only manifests or acts on such bias later in life. This is recognized as occuring because of various factors, including social, peer and family pressure, and fear of coming out. While I may be type “B” I am still as much a transsexual as any one of you. And that is the only true statement here on the subject.
“facts and reason”? I am so sorry if your so-called “facts” are no more than wind and smoke and sleights and insults fueled out of insecurity issues – as well as being patently false.
Irony? I surely do love irony. And destiny too. Destiny is a fickle girl – and sometimes she likes to dance with Irony… and the two of them can surely cut a rug.
“Gender fascists”? LOL – you mean such as yourselves? Fortunately, as has been pointed out to me, it seems you are of your narrowminded kind. It amazes me that a friend of mine who only transitioned at 79 (and died at 83) was far more of a “mensch” than such as you – who are clearly much younger than her.
I know exactly what I have read here – exactly the same kind of thoughtess rhetoric and hate speech which I have seen on many anti-glbti sites – which makes it all the more disgusting.
Are you quite certain that I am the one with the closed mind? If you review our “conversations” I think you may find different.
Christina,
“No – you would rather alienate the only allies we have in a very real “culture war”.”
I suppose you are incapable of grasping the fact that we might not share the goals of some in this “culture war?” That we might not wish to “deconstruct gender.” That we might not wish to “subvert the binary.” You suffer from the fallacy that all transsexuals must have certain views.
“which is why you found it necessary to hide in a closet a slightly different shade of ‘gay’ for the last 30 years…?”
You might go further if you did not simply parrot the same tired silliness that we have all heard before. We are not in some imaginary closet. We simply desire to live our lives as who, and what, we are….as women. You, on the other hand, are living your life as who, and what you are.
“In any case, I don’t care whether people think of me as trans, as long as they address me correctly and with courtesy.”
Actually, I suspect you take great delight in being viewed as trans. I suspect you actually prefer that to being seen as “just a woman.”
“I have helped educate them about transsexuality and many of them are now far more open minded and accepting. And yes, even some of those who made death threats in the beginning now wave and smile at me sheepishly in passing.”
Translation: You are protected by either law, or company policy, and if they don’t “smile…sheepishly” you will cost them their jobs. You mistake fear for acceptance.
“You mentioned passability as important earlier – yes it is important if you hope to disappear into a black hole of anonymity after transition. As you pointed out before, there are those who are not as fortunate as us who will never pass – and from them the general public develops the stereotypes you so despise.”
What you call “a black hole of anonymity” I would simply call a normal, quiet life. I am not going to give that up because someone else might not be a fortunate.
“Damage? What damage? I don’t think it compares to the damage you guys do by introducing an unstable element to an already unstable equation.”
I hope my efforts do stop the extremes that the “transgender actvists” are pushing for.
“There is no such thing as a “true” or even a “classic” transsexual. You are either a transsexual or you aren’t – and if you are a transsexual, you are either a type “A” or a type “B” transsexual. Type “A” manifesting signs of transgender bias from early age and following through from an early age. Type “B only manifests or acts on such bias later in life. This is recognized as occuring because of various factors, including social, peer and family pressure, and fear of coming out. While I may be type “B” I am still as much a transsexual as any one of you. And that is the only true statement here on the subject.”
You are correct when you say that one is either a transsexual, or not. And, quite frankly, I honestly don’t believe you are…unless you want to go with the old truism that if you weren’t one before surgery, you will be afterwards. No, the correct term for what you want to call a “type B” is “autogynephile.” While I strongly disagree with most of Ray Blanchard’s pseudoscience, he is correct in asserting that there are those who are driven to “change sex” because of reasons other than a real need to correct the disconnect between their mind and their body. No, if you did not have a lifelong history of such a disconnect, then it does not exist. You might choose to have surgery, but that is another matter altogether. Simply put, we had you pegged from the start, and I appreciate you being honest enough to confirm what we suspected.
“Are you quite certain that I am the one with the closed mind? If you review our “conversations” I think you may find different.”
No, from what I have seen, your answers consist of repeating a series of tired clichés and insults. I have seen nothing that indicates you actually have any understanding of what you are arguing against. You are incapable of even conceiving that someone might actually not see things the way you do. As we have said, you have the right to your views, but we happen to disagree with them. You, on the other hand, demand blind acceptance of the “transgender party line.” And that, quite simply, is the basic definition of a “gender fascist.” Someone who holds the view that they have the right to tell others that they have to accept membership in the “community” and that they must hold a certain view…or else.
Dear JJ – (that sounds so butch, doesn’t it?) may I call you Jenny?
I seldom see any point in arguing with bigots over their bigotry. In fact, there are very few reasons to make it worthwhile – 1: to change the minds of the bigots – which is in most cases unlikely (though not impossible) and 2: to allow others to see your bigotry for what it is – repugnant, to make it public and to allow others to judge you for it.
As a parting note, I see by your totally wild and inaccurate analysis of me that you subscribe to dear Dr Zucker’s idiot theories on autogymo-woss’name thingy. Well, that makes you about as big a wanker as he is for believing his nonsense. Did you know he also hates gay and transgender people and is a pawn of the religious right and the ex-gay movement?
(Yes, you may delete this post as well if it hits too close to home).
At least for my part I am happy to see that this hatred comes from an out-of-touch, bitter, senile and decrepit source, which is on its way out and sooner or later will be pretty much extinct.
As for point 1 above, I regret to inform you that you are quite the lost cause.
In point 2 however, you performed admirably.
Your bigotry, hypocrisy, rhetoric and lack of humanity and compassion though, will outlive you – as will we.
Ain’t extinction a bitch? Oh – right, and so am I. Ciao, ciao sweety pies.
Christina, other than to note that you continue to spew the same tired clichés there is not much more to be added. Oh, other than to say that no, the word “bitch” is not applicable to you at all.
White South Africans have no history of bigotry .. in fact they all sound like ex-smokers, smug in their new found enlightenment
Done with this thread.
Leigh,
Alas, that is all too true.
What is wrong with you people?!
Heterosexual transgender supremacists?!
WTF?!
I am a gay man and I see myself as part of the larger LGBTIQ community. It seems that your self-loathing and internalised transphobia dealt you lot quite a bad hand… Pity pity pity.
I will not resort to name calling but I will state this: your ‘emancipation’ from the LGBTIQ community and your disgust with the cohesive LGBTIQ community will inevitably lead to your own demise.
My goodness – it is true – the land of the bigoted and the home of the nefarious…
Enjoy living in your little segregated and unequal paradise.
“your ‘emancipation’ from the LGBTIQ community and your disgust with the cohesive LGBTIQ community will inevitably lead to your own demise.
”
Well, and some of us might think the opposite, that conflating our identity with the GLBT (etc.) will lead to our demise. I believe this, and I know most of the posters here believe this also. I, and only I, decide what community is for me … and it IS the real world, full of my girlfriends and male friends (and dates), my career and just havin’ fun. I DO NOT want what I have built up over the last 6 years hijacked for some political “gender agenda”.
My life is my own and I will fight any group that tries to include me in their community without my consent.
Sara …
Daniel, what part of “We do not identify as transgender!” do you not understand?
The fact that we do not share the absurd and radical agenda of the gender fascists does not equate to the us being self-loathing. I do find it very telling that certain parties think that simply wanting to live our lives as the women that we are is somehow “self-loathing.”
Daniel, shouldn’t you be cruising gay bars or something instead of interjecting yourself into the gender debate? I mean, what do you know about the gender debate? You’re a homosexual man speaking as though you have some kind of special insight into gender…just because you are gay…and you don’t. The entire vocabulary of homosexuals and many transgender can be summed up with some variation of bigot, phobia, internalize, elite, and hate…everyone’s a psychologist, when in truth, you don’t know your butt from a hole in the ground. And you pity us? Yeah right. You have no traction nor audience here. If you or the transgender want to feel all persecuted and denied your rights then go crazy guy, no one is stopping you. If you or the transgender want to feel inferior to those who don’t buy into GLBT politics, have at it. If you or the transgender think that everyone who doesn’t agree with you hates your guts, more power to you (must suck for you though). If you or the transgender think that legislation will give you jobs or assure your social acceptance, then lobby ’til the cows come home.
Those who don’t accept GLBT politics don’t feel persecuted, or that our rights have been denied, nor inferior to the homosexuals and transgender because they don’t agree with our position…we don’t feel hated, and we for damn sure know that all of the laws in the universe are not going to assure us jobs and cement our societal acceptance. Pity parties with heaping helpings of “oh, woe is me” just don’t come into play for us. And that, drives you all insane. We are not better than you are, but we are different than you folks are…and that drives all of you bat shit crazy.
You including the intersex in the GLBT is particularly egregious. What right do you have to do that? Most intersex don’t even know they are intersex…most intersex who do know they are intersex have no problem with either their sexual orientation or their gender identification, yet both you and Christina seem to have no problem at all annexing them into the GLBT, just as the GLB did to transsexuals. What right do you have to do that? How pompous of you to do so. Check out the intersex blogs, most want nothing to do with the GLB’s little shop of horrors. The majority of the intersex are quite fine just the way they are without any help from the GLB…here, check out the links relating to the intersex in THIS, see for yourselves. Hell, there is not even a consensus on exactly what constitutes intersex…yet the GLBT has snatched them up… “they are just like us” …appropriation is the name of the game when it comes to the GLBT.
Go ahead, throw your outrageous flaming hissy fits, but you might need to accept the reality that there are some of us of whom will not continue to sit still for the appropriation, colonization, and annexing of our identity. Even more of us think that pregnant man is a stupidly bizarre joke only surpassed by the fallacy that a female can have a penis. Those notions are absurd; no wonder the mainstream thinks that the transgender are out of their frigging minds. Many of us want nothing to do with that kind of crap. So far, we have not actively opposed the GLBT, instead hoping to open a dialogue aimed at severing the relationship; we have seen movement in recognizing our concerns from some of the more reasonable activists. But that is not to say one day we might not actively and vehemently oppose and lobby against GLBT politics. Many of us are simply fed up with having words put into our mouth, told we are bigots, haters, etc. for no other reason than we disagree with mainstream GLB politics and their including us in a “community” we don’t belong to, don’t want to be associated with and, in spite of us feeling differently, tell us we are going to stay in that “community” because whether we know it or not…whether we like it or not…we are a part of it. If the GLBT doesn’t get its act together, it would not surprise me at all if one night on Larry King or Ophra one doesn’t find someone with our position slamming the GLBT like its never been slammed before…just one night like that would do an incredible amount of damage. And, if it ever came to that, it would be way more than just one night. For many of us who have talked, such an appearance in the mainstream media could be the one thing and only one thing that would ever make us out ourselves. Their’s plenty of transgender plastered across the different media…plenty of gay rights activists as well. But so far, there has not been someone arguing our position on the air waves…not yet at least.
So, raise hell…flame yourselves silly…make outrageous claims, twist our words…assume we hate you, insist we are elitist, supremacists. But, we are not going away…and if you try hard enough, your ridiculous characterizations might…just might…become reality.
Susan – Right on – I’ll contact Oprah on your behalf
Yeah, right…LOL