I’ve been busy, but a day or so ago, while catching up, I came across this post Maura Hennessey made at Pam’s House Blend on a piece by Autumn Sandeen entitled What Horizontal Violence Looks Like in Community:
“My issue with the HBS crowd is this
It is the loathesome attitude towards the LGBT community, remarks like this, from the owner of a prominent HBS site, tgnonsense:”
“In fact, attending even an hour, much less a week, with a bunch of butt-ugly, dirty, lesbian-centric, feminist females doing anything is never likely to be on high on my “to do” list.”
“But…if one day I should decide to attend MWMF, they’ll never know it. And be truthful, Gynophile, my dear little greasy, motorcycle-smelling dyke, isn’t that what really bothers you?”
“And then there is this gem from Jennifer:”
“No amount of wishful thinking is going to make things completely safe. But if the TG activists continue this sort of foolishness, more will die.’
by: MauraHennessey @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 01:18:22 AM EDT
I had a problem with this post on several levels and replied to Ms. Hennessey with this as soon as I read it:
Absolutely, but…
What you [Maura Hennessey] fail to mention and refer to, much less link to, is the specific blog post you quote me on…so here it is: http://tgnonsense.wordpress.co…
…the same blog post in which I link to the MWMF blog (particularly one commenter with the user name Gynophile that rudely, aggressively, and sarcasticly insults me specifically and all post operative females in general…so hear it is as well: http://michfest.com/forums/vie…
By the way, Ms Hennessey, as you are supposed to be an attorney, I’m not quite sure why you insist on calling my blog an “HBS site” considering the many times we have called that militant group on their BS. You might also notice that Gynophile starts out by referencing a TG Non-Sense post named “The Hypocrisy of the HBS Movement.”
Prior to your comment, I had respect for your input. But to quote my post out of context, describing me as someone with a “loathesome attitude towards the LGBT community” without explaining what brought on my ire is reprehensible.
Did I respond to Gynophile…absolutely.
by: EnoughNonSense @ Sun May 03, 2009 at 15:43:49 PM EDT
First of all, anyone transsexual or any form of transgender, either FtoM or MtoF, should visit the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival forum entitled Exactly whose “transitioning”…. , start on Page One and read the comments, particularly those of a lesbian whose user name is Gynophile. There are eleven pages at last count, the first eight of which are choice pages of narrative that will give anyone with a brain a look at what lesbians who posted on this thread really think of anyone gender variant, specifically MtoF. Here are some quotes, most from Gynophile…but believe me, she is not alone and what is quoted below is just the tip of the iceberg of what inspired my upset and subsequent essay on Enough Non-Sense entitled Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival. It was insulting the first time I read this mess and even more so the second time, but for the reader to fully understand why I wrote the post Ms. Hennessey quotes me on I did so and below is some of the more ignorant comments from that group…by page…by user name. I have emphasized the more repugnant comments:
Page #1
Gynophile:
“To speak of M2F – OR – F2M as transgendered because they cosmetically alter their genitals, IS a version of suppose to act — taken to an extreme. “
“I love that you posted this link…. It proves how totally subjective these judgment calls are regarding presentation. This looks like a girl to me. A pretty typical “baby dyke”. Of course, the people in ther tranny LJ community are gonna say otherwies and tell her what she wants to hear.”
“Because there is no alternative discourse – it’s trans propaganda 24/7, especially on the internet.”
“Being “born in the wrong body” lets everyone off the “hook” — it’s a mistake of nature, not nurture. It spares parents the angst of asking themselves: What did I do wrong?…. Which is never the right question, but one almost every parent asks themselves when they find out their child is lesbian/gay.”
Page #2
fisherwoman:
“I do question this seeming fad of breast reconstruction and hormone therapy that seems to denounce female/women.”
“I don’t get chopping tits.” ["chopping tits" = mutilation = Gender Reassignment Surgery...in this case FtoM.]
Gynophile:
“It’s exactly that, a fad – a type of conformity.. Albeit a sad one.” [She is referring to fisherwoman’s quote above.]
Preciolcilla:
“I try not to impose my world view or beliefs on people….even though I really don’t understand the desire to be male or mutilate one’s body. However, the issue is this genderqueer or transgender stuff among butches, like you mentioned, really devalues female bodies and “female characteristics.” [Another reference to Gender Reassignment Surgery being a mutilation...more comes.]
free2bme:
“This whole “I’m challenging the paradigm” by dressing as a woman and living stealth while looking like a man is as close to a definition of insanity as I can get. And it’s no different for the FTMs who are doing it. It’s not just gender constructs, it’s HYPER gender constructs. You don’t challenge a paradigm by becoming a caricature.”
”It’s like drag-queen-ism without the yuk-yuk. I know all sorts of drag queens and they are very quick to tell you they are men AND DO NOT want to be women.”
Page #3
Preciocilla:
“My railing against certain transgender belief systems comes from my direct experience and not what you call old thinking. It was the trans community (butches who went trans) who slowly started to convince my butch partner that she was trans and not a butch woman. How could she be a butch woman and be so masculine, be such a strong top and be so rugged in the world? They told her that women don’t possess those qualities….she must be trans. She had NO political analysis; she did not understand that her identity was threatening to people because women are not supposed to have the experience that she was having. She bought into the trans rhetoric because it explained why she never felt comfortable in her own skin.”
”Instead of explaining that she was a different kind of woman; she came to believe that she was a different kind of man. Thanks Trans community for that clarification. I don’t respect the trans community because they take a global problem, the oppressive/rigid gender system, and turn it into an individual issue (people should change themselves instead fighting against the system).”
fisherwoman:
“These genderqueer kids are certainly more likely to listen to someone who actually will listen to them, than someone who calls them names and tells them they are sick.”
AmazonGurerra:
“I would be supremely happy if trans occupied “trans space”. The issue is their insistence that they occupy everyone else’s space.”
Page #4
Gynophile:
“There’s a very popular British TV show that is entirely devoted to spoofing this trans stuff. It’s a riot, except when the tragedy of it all seeps through.”
“TG/trans. is a mental health issue played out in 3D gender constructed performity.”
dirtywhiteboi:
“And who better than another “insecure” man to point that out…lol…priceless!” [This is in response to a post by a user by the name of Brenda, a transsexual, who consistently tried to offer reason and fact only to be repeatedly made fun of.]
Gynophile:
“Here’s how this stuff looks to the rest of the world.” [An insulting YouTube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxLBpa7g5fg ]
Page #5
Intersexgirl:
“I am very pissed off that the intersex community is being stolen, appropriated and hijacked by the transgender people…That’s why I am fighting to kick the transgender people out of the intersex community.” [ I don’t blame you Intersexgirl…the GLB did the same thing to transsexuals…start early if you want a chance in hell of succeeding…we waited too late.]
Wildwomyn:
“Immediately the discussion turns to all things trans and co-opts intersex issues, which are very real as opposed to trans-anything which is made up in one’s head.”
Gynophile:
“Transsexualism is a mental health issue — otherwise, transsexuals would be considered intersexed – they are not…. No legitimate, authentic medical authority considers GID a medical condition. Anyone who thinks that is either living in a fantasy or totally ignorant of the facts.”
“The overwhelming majority of L/Gs, don’t take the the TG/trans and their devotees seriously. They see them as a tiny, fringe group of broke people who have attached themselves, parasite-like, to the lesbian and gay community.”
“Few straight people, in the real world, take TG/trans seriously. They see them as disturbed people, or worse…..”
“The internet is the only place the trans. have any real presence….”
“Of course Bred is going to spin courtesy as “passing”. He, like most TG/trans, live a life constructed entirely on fantasy. Everything he says, everything he does is in the service of that fantasy. Including his appropriation of other people’s identities and nomenclature. This is a man who argues that men can nurse babies. Someone who probably believes, albeit tragically, that he has pap smears. He’s disturbed.” [Gynophile is referring to Brenda as Bred, who consistently tries to defend transsexuals.]
“People like Mr. Bred and his devotees call us “bigots”, “transphobes” because we refuse to go along with their fantasies….” [Gynopile is referring to Brenda with male pronouns.]
“If we were to confront Mr. Bred face to face, undoubtedly we would encounter a dumpy, middle aged man in a frumpy dress and cheesy wig. It would be difficult not to laugh - he’s an autogynophile nebbish. It’s important to keep in mind who we are dealing with, here - a man with a vivid fantasy life, in drag, hiding behind a computer monitor. How sad is that — I mean really, how sad is that?” [Again, Gynopile referring to Brenda.]
dirtywhiteboi:
“Dont forget the whore shoes! ” [This is in reference to what Gynophile left out of her caricature of Brenda immediately above.]
Page #6
Gynophile:
Gynophile quotes Enough Non-Sense post The Hypocrisy of the HBS Movement and then quote THE PETITION site, and then adds:
“I mean really, have you ever read more disingenuous crap in your life?
Gynophile (back-to-back comment):
“Grandma shoes in the case of Mr. Bred.” [Continuing to ridicule Brenda.]
”I just out every single one of them. I’ve never been wrong yet — even when it come to the pretty gay boys.” [Want to be outed, just stick with the GLB]
dirtywhiteboy:
“She clocks with her eyes open!” [Responding to Brenda’s question of how Gynophile knows she’s always right in "reading" transsexuals.]
Gynophile:
“Exactly…. It’s not in the slightest bit difficult. They want to think it is, but they think there’s a woman trapped in their head, too…. “ [Gynophile agreeing with dirtywhiteboi post of “Clocks with her eyes open!”]
free2bme:
“Gyno and I both live in NYC where you can’t take two steps without seeing some dude trying to come off as a woman. Some are better than others, but if you can’t read it, then you’ve probably been living in a cave somewhere.” [Response to Gynophile’s “clocking” ability; notice the term "it".]
Gyno, have you seen the guy on the 6 train who’s a dead ringer for Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie? I don’t know who he’s trying to fool.” [Response to Gynophile’s “clocking” ability.]
Gynophile:
Quotes the Enough Non-Sense essay, The GLB’s Sexualization of Transsexualization and Intersexuality…after the excerpt she adds:
“NOTE TO SELF: Contact this dude and tell him about Bred and his devotees at Mich Fest.” [She is referring to me when she says “this dude” and "tell him", as well as more ridicule of Brenda]
Gynophile:
“And, sistah MINICA is not at all pleased….” [Gynophile is referring to and ridiculing Monica Roberts of TransGriot.] She references an article by Monica entitled Hateraid from a WBT]
Gynophile:
“Leave it to a white man in a dress and grandma shoes to use a raced, Bell Curve analogy.” [Referring to Brenda]
“Bred, you don’t come across as particularly astute, and you have proven yourself to be dishonest on many, many occasions. But let’s try and be a little straight faced about this…. If autogynophiles, like you, were only in it for the sex change, you wouldn’t be obsessed with “passing” (you don’t “pass”, anyway, so why make yourselves crazier?)” [Referring to Brenda.]
“The TG/trans intentionally confuse and conflate gender with bio sex – It’s part of how ya’ll try and get over on people, especially people who aren’t well informed.”
“In any case Mr. Bred, you’re still a male in a dress. You can priss and preen ’til the cows come home, you can buy 100 pairs of grandma shoes – you’re still a male in a dress performing a gender construct. No amount of cosmetic surgery will ever change that.” [Again, referring to Brenda.]
Gynophile:
“Here you go Mr. Bred, ‘cause you’re a lady…… “ [More YouTube ridicule http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_-PuR3JHw&feature=related ]
Page #7
Gynophile:
Going back to her clocking abilities, she references an earlier post by free2bme in which asked the question of Gynophile if she has “…seen the guy on the 6 train who’s a dead ringer for Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie?” Gynophile responds, obviously proud of her violent demeanor:
“I don’t have occasion to take the #6 much these days – it’s an East Side train, I’m Westie (B or C train to Fulton, then the #2 or 3 to Bergen). Mostly, I drive or ride the Harley over the BB….
“I did hit a dude dressed as Barbara Streisand not too long ago. Clipped him in a crosswalk. His wig shot off his head like a flying squirrel in heat. It went half a block before it landed in an awning at the corner of DeKalb. Some old lady jumped outta a dollar van and was on that sucker in a flash. You wouldn’t think an old lady could scale a security gate like that. She was in the wind before Babs even stopped tumbling. Wasn’t any damage to the car, so I drove off. I could hear Babs yellin’ for a coupla blocks. Somethin’ about me bein’ a transphobe….. Bred, that wasn’t you, was it?” [Violence to the max...]
Gynophile:
“But you’re not female Bred, regardless of how many voices you have in your head; regardless of how much cosmetic surgery you have.”
“You don’t become whole by cutting your body parts off…“ [Another refererence to mutilation and Gender Reassignment Surgery.]
Gynophile:
“If this Retrovirus (CD13) affects the brain, thereby causing cross-dressing, does that mean the transsexists have been cutting off the wrong body part?” [CD13 is a fictional retrovirus…just more references by Gynophile to GRS as mutilation.]
It was at this point that I published the essay, Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival and it was that essay that Maura Hennessey decided made me loathsome (the GLB can hardly write a sentence that doesn’t contain some form of loath or phobe in it.). I just quoted the high points of the MWMF thread…but for 8 pages I read some of the most insulting trash aimed at all gender variant people I have ever read. Gynophile picks back up:
Page #10
Gynophile:
“Crashing Fest is a criminal offense based in sexual deviancy…” [“Fest” is referring to the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival.]
Gynophile:
“Mr. Bred, if you crash Fest, you’re breaking the law…And, acting like an abusive male.”
Gynophile:
“Fest policy explicitly states that it for women-born-women only, and you’re not.”
Gynophile:
“And you, Mister, are just the man to teach me about Fest.” [Referring to Brenda, a transsexual, as male.]
dirtywhiteboi:
“You’re certainly dating yourself with that granny dress, that mirror and your hand up your dress, so whats ur point?” [Ridiculing Brenda…]
The MWMF thread ends…
The second issue I have are remarks made by Jennifer attributed to Enough Non-Sense. Ms. Hennessey doesn’t specifically say they were made on Enough Non-Sense, but she implied as much; I didn’t take the time to check because I really don’t care. But…I do own Enough Non-Sense and have yet to ban someone on my blog for voicing their opinion, unlike virtually every other blog on the net, including Pam’s House Blend. If you don’t have an issue with censorship, Maura, then come right on out and support it…but I do. I will edit some of the posts that are made on my blog, for instance I will not allow anybody, TG or otherwise, to be referred to as male if they are female identified.
I don’t support HBS…I have said so on many occasions…I have stated so on my blog…articles have been written about it on my blog…hell, the MWMF article that started all of this even references one of the articles written on Enough Non-Sense criticizing HBS in the harshest of ways…yet you refer to Enough Non-Sense as a “prominent HBS site.” I don’t know whether to call your characterization of Enough Non-Sense stupid, ignorant, or just plain hateful. Either way, as I said in my response to your post at the top of this essay, your post, out of context quotes, failure to link to the MWMF forum, and mischaracterization of my blog is reprehensible.
If you expect me to read the crap I read on the MWMF forum I quoted above and not become angry you are an absolute idiot. The comments on that thread attacked any and everyone who might fall under the T of GLBT. It is no secret that I am no fan of the transgender umbrella, but on the other hand, open ridicule and hostility of the kind I quote above is unacceptable to me. And if you expect to write my anger off as being loathsome to the GLBT community for writing such an essay because my essay was obviously aimed as the ignorant lesbians who wrote those comments on the MWMF forum, particularly the violent, motorcycle riding dyke Gynophile…then that’s just too fucking bad.
You read the article…you had to have read the article in order to quote it correctly. I didn’t see your name in any of the comments of the MWMF thread defending the transsexuals or transgender you claim you are so supportive and inclusive of.
No, Maura Hennessey…you are no ally to me…never will be again. You have been a voice of reason on many occasions and I have supported you in the past – I have even defended you when your position was aggressively challenged here on Enough Non-Sense – but no more. Plainly put, I don’t care for unpredictable and disingenuous people…GLBT or otherwise.
90 Comments
I don’t remember if I made that remark here, or on Sandeen’s blog. But I agree, Hennessey’s remark are unfair…and completely typical of many in the TG crowd.
As to my remark, I stand by it. So-called activists have been howling about how Angie was murdered, but they have not made a single post where they offer even the slightest suggestion that pre-ops, or anyone else, should even consider taking steps to protect themselves. They seem to have this attitude that somehow successful prosecutions and hate crime laws are going to stop people from dying. Of course, they won’t. I am not trying to blame the victim. To me, that would be like someone saying a rape victim was “asking for it.” But, at the same time, only the most foolish of women will engage in obviously risky behavior because they understand the need to avoid certain situations and places.
The attitude of many in the transgender crowd is comparable to some group of women objecting to safety classes for women because “rape laws should be enough to protect them.”
The problem with people like “Gynophile” is that you are not playing the part of the good little minority. Don’t you know that disagreeing with another woman is manly, and gives her the right to make up all sorts of random insults about you? Please. rofl
You are supposed to bow and scrape before them, and hang on their every word because they think they are in a place to grant or deny “womanhood”. You are supposed to tremble in your boots that they will call you a man, or worse! Oh the agony, some random dork on the internet called me a name! lol
It boggles their mind when someone whom they consider lower on the social heirarchy doesn’t show them the proper respect. They don’t seem to understand that most of us out here do not take a victim mentality, and we also do not consider them to be better than us in any way, shape, or form.
But really these people are just nutcases with mental problems. Everyone has trials in life, and dealing with them is just something we all have to do. It sounds like these people are not handling their emotional issues and are just taking things out on people they think are weaker than them. It’s the epitome Primate Imperative.
A couple them got burned in a relationship with a trans person, some are self-hating MtF’s. And if I remember right that Dirtywhiteboi person is an FtM that failed to launch or something. The rest are sockpuppets.
I know how it is to have some idiot saying things about you, SA. And you have every right to insult them back. Did someone make a rule that we are supposed to put up with crap? Oh that’s right, the “trans” crowd tends to kiss ass in GLBT circles in order to be allowed into the clubhouse. They just aren’t used to it when people bite back. You’d think eventually they would wake up and realize there is something to what we’ve been saying.
BRAVO!!!
About bloody time someone took this bitch down a peg.
While commenting at bilerico on Monica Helms essay “Stuck in lonleliness”, Maura Hennessey and I got into it when she stated …
I replied:
Do try and get over yourself Maura…
She comes back with:
My reply to this was admittedly a slam on Maura Hennessey, one which bilerico and Monica helms chose to unpublish for TOS violation, probably rightly so, but I believe it was worth saying and fair comment. With sa-et’s permission I would like to recreate what I said here, not verbatim as I no longer have a copy, but in so many words here is my reply to Maura Hennessey:
Susan made this blog to call out the nonsense. Lets not veer from that path because there is NOWHERE else to freely post our views.
Ariablue
You are so right on in what you say. Lesbians and Gays are even more condescending in this view.
Yeah we are supposed to put up with crap. If we don’t we are being men. The view from trannyland is that women are all sugar and spice, just look at sandeen for this “eep!” Good god, is there anything more tranny than the expletive “eep”!
Of course this “sugar and spice” crap is totally a male perspective. Women can be just as nasty if not moreso than men. Gynophile proves this.
*********
Hey Jennifer, or is it “Suzanne” grin… Thanks for the support at bilerico .. sorry that bill discovered you and banned you, but I wont be far behind.
Aria, unfortunately one of the cardinal rules of “political correctness” is that certain groups are sacrosanct and are allowed to insult others, but they themselves should never be insulted. Yes, it is really all very silly, but Heaven help those who ignore the rules. For they shall be banned from blogs and such.
Alas, when someone accused me of being Sue Anne Robins, that started the ball rolling. I was glad to help out. One thing I have learned about those blogs is that one is welcome as long as you don’t make good arguments against them.
I’ve not read the entire post, but your stringent assertion, based on gays you have worked with, and gay lifestyle blogs, that all homosexuals are sex-obsessed was fairly loathsome.
Thank You SA;
That is spot on.
Jen;
Sorry to hear you were branded as being someone you were not.
It happens to the best of us.
Maybe jwyjibo should work with some of those gays and find our first hand how hostile a queer workplace can be to someone who isn’t into discussing sex every five minutes.
It seems the crowd over at bilerico have scored two hits discrediting woman of operative history in 2 days.
Helms need to learn to keep Helmss mouth shut.
A
Hey I found dirtywhiteboi’s blog, complete with picture.
http://dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.com/2009/02/autogynophilic-hbsts-bs.html
And profile:
http://www.blogger.com/profile/03802122175351253063
I guess the strain of not transitioning has cracked her sanity.
Thats like reading a twisted Monica Helms blog.
I am speechless
All I can say is
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry,
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry,
Okay…now that is weird. I am not quite sure what to make of this person. Though I do think anoldfriend sums it up very well.
“I’m not sure what to make of this person.”
I must admit that I followed the link and skimmed through a few of the blog essays. I’ll give you my take on dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot:
1. She’s obviously a confirmed female crossdresser.
2. Since she is a confirmed female crossdresser, she is by definition transgender.
3. In typical crossdresser fashion , she clings to her natal sex with great passion.
4. In typical crossdresser fashion, she has no desire to change her sex.
5. In typical transgender fashion, she doesn’t need to change her sex to appear, act, talk and write like a male.
6. In typical transgender fashion, genitals “don’t make the man” to her, she only has to look the part.
7. She is homosexual and identifies as female.
8. Like homosexual male crossdressers who seek homosexual males, she seeks homosexual females who like being with homosexual female crossdressers.
9. She somehow seriously thinks somebody gives a damn what she thinks.
10. She lists her occupation as Full-Time Butch lesbian…wonder if that pays well?
11. She is interested in dismantling trannyism in spite of the fact that she is transgender herself.
12. She’s definitely Jerry Springer material.
13. She is not worth spending another word on.
People like this idiot are priceless. They give new meaning to the phrase “Variety is the spice of life.”
SA;
The term one person freak show comes to mind.
Think about this.
Why is it most seriously; most of the transgender community be they male borne or female borne are mentally ill?
By the way have you read Cooke’s latest blog about Blanchard?
Some of us have been outing him as a Eugenicist for better than four years now.
A
So basically just another transgender type trying to tear down actual transsexual men and women. The self-loathing just drips, huh?
The funny thing is that I came across the profile when looking up blogs that mention Harry Benjamin, probably because of the HBS thing. Anyway as you said, no more words really need to be wasted on her. I hope this person can overcome her issues and live a happier life.
A Monica Helms if you will.
A
anoldfriend…
I’ve said it before, there is nothing to be gained by cutting someone just to see them bleed. I personally don’t think that most who identify as transgender are mentally ill , I simply don’t think they are classicly true transsexuals. Most, like dirtywhiteboy are simply crossdressers. There is nothing wrong with that, but they aren’t transsexual and certainly bear no resemblance to me.
To everyone…
Enough bashing of Monica Helms and Autumn Sandeen here just for the hell of it. Address their issues here if you like, but take your unrelated insults and jabs to their blogs, not mine, please. This blog is not here to slam anyone just for the thrill of it, but to challenge the issues put forth by the transgender who have colonized true transsexuals. Please respect my request. I have seen person after person go on and on and on and on in blog threads losing all credibility in the process and eventually being banned…nothing but nothing is gained by continuously criticizing someone unless you are specifically addressing a position they are publicly professing…honestly, doing that makes the commenter look like a jerk.
SA-ET.
There are things i’d like to ask you, but you don’t seem to have an email address anywhere.
Public boards won’t work for a one on one discussion, because i don’t ‘belong’ anywhere. You give the impression of being ‘banned’ everywhere, and there’s a couple of junk yard dogs here i’d rather not deal with.
Addressing someone directly from a self-controlled blog is something i’d rather not do. If you couldn’t care less about answering my questions or giving me your opinion directly, don’t bother responding.
It wouldn’t be the first time, believe me.
anonymoustgirlblog@gmail.com
The main problem with Maura’s slam, I think, is the unchallenged notion that any disagreement with the politics of certain people is tantamount to hatred of all gays and lesbians. It’s an attempt to draw uninvolved people in on their “side” and enrage them at the enemies of the “aggrieved”. It’s a form of bullying where you sit back and play nicey-nice while the rabid dogs attack.
Also, it was an attempt to paint everyone who disagrees with the party line with the same brush. If you don’t do as you are told, you are an enemy of the state and are fair game. After all, she was generous enough to give you a chance to fall in line, right?
She obviously knows it irks you to be called names like “advocate” for blah and such, and does it anyway. The problem is that the more you try to paint your various enemies as being all the same, the more actual resistance you create where there was none before.
Disingenuous is probably a euphemism in this case, and it is par for the course for those sorts of Glbt politicians. Hah, I wonder if there isn’t something to your musings about the eunuchs of old… Do her trans “friends” know about that attitude? Maybe her friends think it is fine to be that way, but there are plenty of post transition men and women out here who don’t appreciate her attitude or words.
The Petition
It’s been almost a year now, not that anyone’s counting, and in that time there have been to date, only 105 signitors.
It is pathetic.
We have ran out of topics to discuss, arguments to present and credibility to get anything changed.
We are in short, peeing in the wind.
We have no leadership, and very little support even amongst those that blog here. It will be to nobody’s surprise, that even amongst us there is division and elitism, some that hold themself above.
We are at the top of a burning tree, the flames licking higher and higher, surrounded by each other, each climbing over the next to reach a higher perch.
Lashing out is all many of us have left, the last futile effort by a beleagured few destined to loose.
We should take it elsewhere, or not say it at all.
We should not say it at all.
It’s done with.
The fight is the right fight, we are on the good side of the fight. We have the moral highground.
It doesn’t matter when you outnumbered by a group who wants to co-opt everything in it’s path and marginalize it and label it GAY. Everyone of us who has provided an effective argument have been banned from their forums and blogs. This shows the level of cowards they are.
Karma has a way of equalizing everything.
Just stand by and watch.
They will be undone by their nonsense because apparently there isn’t
Enough Nonsense just yet.
And History Does Repeat Itself.
The best thing to do is stand out of the way and watch the culling.
To anoldfriend and Leigh: both of you have made excellent comments that are squarely in the bullseye of the issue. I would like to highlight portions of those comments that each of you made.
First, to Leigh, one of my very closest friends:
You say:
The topics “to discuss” seem to get more complicated and screwed up with each passing day. My next blog essay will address just that issue.
Credibility is a huge issue. I firmly believe that in order to present an argument (argument being defined in the sense of one’s position in a debate), credibility is paramount. As an example, I have always held that referring to full-time crossdressers, non-ops, and other non surgery tracked transgender types, or anyone who identifies as one gender, say female, by a male pronoun is not only extremely insulting and uncalled for, but counter productive in the overall debate…I say this whether that is the personal feelings of whomever writes it or not. Credibility is among other things based on common decency and decorum. Manners and tact, for lack of better words, is part of the common decency I am referring to. Everyday there are things we would like to say to someone…but don’t. The reason we don’t is that it violates common decency and courtesy. Because we think it, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily right to say it or write it. Undoubtedly and often we write things on the internet that we would in all probability not say if we were face-to-face with the individual…or at least not say it to them as we often write it.
Leigh, you also say:
Leigh, you certainly know me well enough to know I completely understand, agree, and sympathize with that sentence. We will not win this debate; you and I both know that…you and I have both spoken on the phone about it, you and I have spoken personally, face-to-face about the issue often, and have chatted online more times than either of us can remember. I have said many times here, on my blog, that I completely understand the frustration that you, me, and most everyone who comments here feel. Often, it feels like we are one of the 300 Spartans up against the Persian hoards…though we can put up a great fight, defeat is inevitable. But, and I see this as important. In many ways we are the Spartans of the transgender umbrella that has colonized us. The TeeGee movement has appropriated us while simultaneously referring to us as elitist and separatist. Okay, at least for me, I will own elitism and separatism if that is what the TG movement insist we are. Leigh, you, me, and the many thousands of post operative classic/true transsexuals (most of whom don’t take part in the debate), using the 300 Spartans as an analogy, have paid the price, been through the ordeal, and come out on the other side as productive member of society who have changed out sex. But, also using the 300 Spartan analogy, even though defeat is inevitable, we should struggle on, if for no other reason than to constantly put in the face of the died-in-the-wool transgender that we are here…we disagree with their premises…and we are not going away. That may not fit for everyone, but its my position. Since Enough Non-Sense started, more and more I have seen the positions we have being discussed in the mainstream blogs.
To anoldfriend, you say:
I can’t agree with your use of the phrase “moral high ground.” The reason I can’t agree of your use of that phrase is simply because I don’t see transvestism as a moral issue. And, with one exception (that be those very, very few who don’t have GRS because of a medical issue) that is what the majority of the transgender really are: transvestites. Though I don’t understand homosexuality because I’m not, I fully recognize that two people of the same sex can be deeply in love with each other…and with that said, I don’t see homosexuality as a moral issue either. To my mind, both transvestism and homosexuality are both social issues, not moral ones. That is my opinion, others may disagree. But, the use of the word moral aside, I completely agree with the quote above. It ties in to my response to Leigh. The fight is the right fight…we are on the good side of the battle. And that side needs to be represented.
You also say:
I couldn’t agree more. “What goes around, comes around”…one can count on it. It may not be today, tomorrow, or even in our lifetime, but things will equalize. I allude to my next blog entry (not sure when it’s coming) but what it will address is the exponentially increasing nonsense that is the transgender movement. Every day I read more and more and more utter bat dung nonsense; the transgender movement is completely out of control. My personal feeling is that the equalizing we are referring to will occur sooner than later, though I define sooner as within the next few years at the earliest.
Thanks to both of you for the great comments.
Sign THE PETITION…now.
What I meant by we have the moral high ground is
WE didn’t co-opt anything.
WE didn’t draft people not interested in our agenda to Gay up everything with political correctness.
WE are not trying to flood women’s spaces with penis people.
WE are not trying to destroy the distinction between male and female.
WE are not trying to force some warped and some would say perverted view of what it is to be female. or Male for that matter.
Like i said WE have the moral high ground, They DON’T.
I fight them on every level I can.
Rather true Transvestism is a moral issue or not, one need only take it up with their GOD.
It’s a personal choice.
A
Many of us ARE banned from posting on blogs.
Heck, Sue Robbins even got banned from TS-SI !
Just Jennifer and Sue have been banned from Bilerico and Pam’s.
Catkisser from Pam’s.
I have been banned from Pams and am close to being banned at Bilerico.
This blog needs to be more credible in its own right. It needs a lot more content. It needs a leader.
Aria’s new blog is excellent, but like this it’s a seedling, and the content is mostly the same.
You are that leader Susan. As you are so fond of saying “it’s your blog”.
Either work it or let it go because the other side are relentless and we cannot gain momentum with a “monthly article”.
In Susan’s defense;
Providing a continuous stream of content is challenging. It can evolve into a part time job all it’s own. I have done it before and couldn’t maintain 5 articles a week.
It’s hard not to get frustrated with the Tee-Gees and those who ally with them. I stopped visiting TS-SI long ago because of it’s repositioning itself as
GLBTeeGee-SI some months back.
You can tell a lot about someone by the company they keep.
With commentators who glorify sex work and spout about their past and present dysfunctional life I feel as do many others who posted there that leaving was the smart thing to do.
In regards to TS-SI a few feel the addition of a certain commentator was the last straw, and it wouldn’t be long before a certain Tee-Gee “Journalist” would have content over there.
The seasons seem to be changing over at that place from spring to Autumn.
It appears due to the lack of activism, HBS is dead, may it rest in peace. There was no support in academia for the concept, without some support from academia or the scientific community it will never be a credible concept, only political and will carry the weight of a feather.
The very thought of making your sexual preferance, orintation, gender identity, fetish, or operative history i find repulsive.
It is the politicalization of all things sexual by the gays that makes have little or no respect for their activists, not what they do in bed or who they do it with.
Many of the mainstream Christians I discuss political matters with feel the same way.
Oh well just another really big sign of the decline of our society.
A
anoldfriend:
I compleatly agree with you. It is easy for me to say the blog needs more content, but I know that susan has a life to live, as do I, and it is difficult and time consuming.
However, nobody asked her to publish a blog and all I am saying is that if someone is going to take that on then it needs to have more than one article a month. Other’s should write articles and submit them to her, as I have done.
As for TS-SI, I have never felt affiliation with either Sharon or Lisa, or come to that most of the people that post there. To me, the whole concept of trying to prove the science is pointless. Nobody would care, even if they did. Yes HBS is dead, even they now refer to it as HBS/Classic Transsexual.
As George Carlin said “It’s all bullshit and it’s all bad for you”
To anoldfriend and Leigh: again, both of you make good points…please allow me to respond in a general way.
Leigh knows that I am involved with someone. I know Leigh’s husband; her and me double-dated the very night she met Rob. I think Leigh might agree with me saying that her man doesn’t much give a damn about the gender debate, probably never has, and most probably never will. I would suspect that Leigh’s man, like most everyone else on the planet knows the difference between a female from a male, can discern bullshit…and that really is the end of it. I will let Leigh respond to my take on her and Rob if she likes, but I would suspect that is a pretty close to how it is, based on my personal interaction with both of them. Either way, that is certainly how my man sees things.
I told my guy of my past after our first date…over the phone. He was surprised and got silent for a pregnant moment. Then he asked me a few questions…we discussed it for quite a length of time, and in the end, he said he didn’t think it would be an issue with him. He said he’d like to continue dating and see how things went and if it did become an issue with him he’d let me know. That was almost two years ago. It hasn’t been an issue for him. Nine months ago, he asked me to live with him (I accepted) and we have skirted the issue of marriage. Neither of us has dated anyone else since we met. He was my date to my company’s Christmas party. My man works for a huge engineering firm; I have been to both of his company’s Christmas parties. I have spent two Christmas’ with a huge get together his daughter has each year. His daughter and her husband have been to our home many times. In February, I accompanied him to Santa Rosa, California to spend four days with his mother; she and I got along splendidly and speak on the phone weekly. After the visit to Santa Rosa, we extended the trip and drove up to Lake Tahoe for two days of snow skiing.
In all of the time we have spent together, not once…not once, has he ever brought up my past…not one time. It’s not that we haven’t spoken of it on occasion, but every time…every single time we have ever spoken about it was because I brought up some issue, not him. Curious, out of the blue, a few months back, I asked him about that…I asked him point blank why he has never had any questions about what it was like for me or about transsexuality in general…what transition was like, etc…why in all these months never one single time had he ever brought up anything related to my being a post op transsexual. Without blinking an eye, he said to me there were two reasons. Most importantly, he said, was the fact that because I had no issues with my past and was obviously comfortable with who I was…he had no issues with my past. And secondly, he said, there was really nothing he wanted or needed to know…I was female to him, he had never known me as anything other than female, and that was that. Both of those statements made a lot of sense to me. He then went on to emphasize again, that the most important thing was that my past was not an issue with me…and so wasn’t an issue with him. Like most everybody, no one likes someone who carries a lot of emotional baggage around with them.
Since it’s confession time, let me also say that the few times I have brought up something related to either me being a post op or an issue related to the gender debate, I could tell that my guy really wasn’t interested in what I was saying. It’s not that he didn’t listen to me or that we didn’t earnestly discuss whatever it was that I brought up, it’s just that I could tell he really could care less. Me being a post op or anything related to the gender debate just held no interest to him. Men are men and women are women. People know the difference. Since we have been seeing each other, I doubt we have discussed anything related to gender more than a half dozen times, at most. My guy is right, I don’t have any issues with my past. I don’t wake up every morning in anguish over something to do with me being a post op. I moved on, as they say.
My guy knows that I have the blog, but I don’t sit around blogging when he is home or we are together. The truth is, I’d rather spend the time with him. He has an hour commute to work each day and generally goes to bed early; I am a night owl, so any blogging I do is generally during the day or late at night after he has gone to bed. But that brings up another issue: currently I am unemployed. And, no, I am not unemployed because I’m being discriminated against. I am not working because the economy, with regard to the huge projects I am hired for as a contract construction engineer, is sucking big time. I have had four projects cancelled right out from under me…two of which were as I was awaiting the contracts to arrive by FedEx…literally cancelled overnight. The huge industrial concerns are canceling projects or putting them on hold like crazy. Fortunately, savings and unemployment benefits, along with my benevolent boyfriend have not put me in the jam that many are. Believe me when I tell you that when you hear on the television every night about the huge layoffs occurring and the “doom and gloom” of the economy that’s no joke, but the truth. The uncertainty of what is going to happen is causing businesses to take a wait and see approach…at least that is the case in my field of expertise.
So, the question is begged: “If you are unemployed and your boyfriend goes to bed every night early, why have you not posted more essays on your blog?” There are a couple of reasons why.
First of all, both my boyfriend and I are engineers. His discipline is Mechanical Engineering, mine is Industrial. His field is the mechanical engineering of petrochemical construction projects; my expertise is in the construction management of huge industrial construction projects. In short, both of us like to build things. He owns, out right, four homes, one of which is rented, one of which we are living in, and the other two are now vacant due to neither of us having the time (or at least taking the time) to rent them out. The nicest of the homes is the one we are living in. It’s located in League City, Texas…swimming pool, nice neighborhood…just a very nice home. We moved here over Thanksgiving; I moved my things from Port Arthur a week or so before Christmas. Prior to Thanksgiving both he and I lived in one of his other homes located in Baytown, Texas. The issue is that the tenant who was leasing the home we are now in did not take good care of it at all…trashed it might be a better description. That tenant moved out the day before Hurricane Ike hit, after seven years of living here. The first time I saw the place was the day after the hurricane hit. Before it could even be livable, my guy contracted to have much of the inside redone…but that left the outside. And, as I said, both he and I like to build things. The long and the short of it is that – aside from the trip out to Santa Rosa/Lake Tahoe for eight days in February, every single day and weekend has involved either me by myself, or the both of us, working all day long on some huge outside projects. These are not small projects, but huge projects, and we are doing all of the work ourselves. We just finished renovating the landscaping of the pool area. And, we are a few days into putting a paved walkway running from the front of the house, along the side, into an expanded courtyard with raised plant beds…continuing out of the courtyard around the house and merging into the patio and pool area. It may not sound like it, but it is daunting and extremely physical work. In short, I have been too tired to write much…either comment wise on other people’s blogs, or on my own.
And, secondly, and perhaps really the reason for the lack of recent essays is the sheer volume of stupidity and nonsense that permeates the gender debate in the blogosphere. There is just so much BS out there; it’s hard to pick any one topic to address. It’s insane. I’ve never seen anything like it.
I don’t know if I’m “fond” of saying it but, yes, I do own this blog. I don’t claim to be a leader of any movement, but I do feel passionately about the difference between “us and them”. I do the best that I can, but as Leigh said, I do have a life. I don’t feel obligated to put out essays on any specific schedule. Leigh is also right when she says I welcome essays from other people, provided the subject matter has some substance to it.
Probably more than you all wanted to hear…Probably more than you all wanted to hear…
SA;
I like to build things also. I grew up in a family of construction contractors. When I was young I started building things. Of the three kids I was the one who could use all of dad’s tools. He trusted me and I built my share of things growing up. I have a deep respect for hand made things, and have collected many over the years. I have never built any really, really big things but did have a job doing home repair related stuff.
In spite of what the news says we are in a depression and have been since November. They just don’t want to tell you that directly, it’s like a psy-op to keep the sheep confused. Like the flu hoax.
Since you build really big things for a living you are hard hit by the depression, I am also for other reasons, being stuck in a third world cesspit doesn’t help ether. It takes money to move and a job on the other end. The last time I did that I didn’t recover from the moving costs, life is a bitch sometimes……
The nonsense has been overwhelming.
All this “Then and Now” stuff is an obscene display of ego and exhibitionism. It’s like “haha I have fooled you I was a man haha, and maybe you didn’t know” How anybody can actually set aside their self respect and do that, is beyond me. It is childish at many levels and in my opinion demonstrates more of the kind of anti-social behavior those people are known for. It confirms to many that the basic belief that Tee-Gees are to one degree or another just not all there.
They are not even aware of the backlash rising like the tide slow and steady and unstoppable.
It’s like watching the events leading up to a train wreck, you see it happening, you know what is going to happen, and you know you are helpless to stop it. All you can do is watch it happen and listen to the victims whale.
A
You do wonderfully with this blog. It isn’t necessary to produce regular essays, or “content” as people say lately. Activities should be measured against their goals, not against the standards of some kind of news service.
Take a look at what you/we are trying to do. It seems to me it’s just like you have said, the few of us who write on this topic now and again do so mainly to be that voice in the wilderness.
We are the poison pill that the TG cannot swallow. A wry attitude, the occasional commentary, irreverence for their dogma, and yes even a bit of snark goes a long way toward that goal. They cannot own ’separatists’ as long as we are so ‘loathsome’. (lol, don’t you love the overuse of that word?) It’s too bad the attempt to rename the condition is on the rocks right now, because when they snipe at the new acronym they solidify their position as being ‘not real transsexuals’, for lack of a better term.
In addition, for me personally at least, I think that another benefit of writing on these things is to give the very few real transitioners out there something besides GLBT talking points to reflect upon. There is no help for us, and in fact we need very little. Hearing the thoughts you are having about things echoed in other people’s writing really does help. We don’t need support groups, but we do need a place to sound off once in awhile. For providing that, and all your efforts, I thank you
What does my old man think of it all?
Well, he thinks it’s amusing and sad at the same time. He is a Gemini and sees both sides of things. He thinks it’s amusing because there is really so much good comedy material in our situation, and sad that he can’t pass it on to his family and friends.
Of the “gender debate”, he really has no interest. He knows I blog about it and sometimes he will make a comment about me “fighting the wars”, but unless I point something out to him he will not bring it up.
We met online. I had been dating a few guys, nothing serious, and was getting tired of the BS out there. I had placed an ad which said in essence that I just wanted one good man and that I didn’t want to date half the men in Dallas to find him. Robby stepped up and said he was a good man. He had recently ended an 18 year marriage, was looking for one good woman to spend the rest of his life with. We met over at the local starbucks, walked around lake Dallas, and decided to double date with Susan that night out at the Thunderhorse saloon, a large biker bar.
I disclosed to Robby after several dates. He dropped the love word on me and I knew it was time. I told him to his face, in his home, alone. Yes I knew the risk, but I also felt that he wasn’t the type to go ape shit. I told him to consider what I had said, consider the implications from his family and friends should my status become known, and not give me an answer for 24 hours. I left.
The next day he told me that he had done some internet research on the subject during the night. He told me that he had gone to a couple of chat rooms and asked several people their thoughts. He told me he had never met such a fucked up bunch of people in his life. He said, I didn’t need to go any further, I instinctivly knew you were different. He gave me a key to his door, the spare key to his truck and took me off to meet his mom.
“The next day he told me that he had done some internet research on the subject during the night. He told me that he had gone to a couple of chat rooms and asked several people their thoughts. He told me he had never met such a fucked up bunch of people in his life.”
No truer words have been spoken.
I agree with Ariablue about the blog. It serves as that lone voice in the wilderness.
Maybe a few will listen and not involve themselves in all that queerness only to regret it later on.
A
A few thoughts…
Yes, it is frustrating, and at times it does seem easier to just give up and stop fighting the nonsense. But, of course, that is exactly what the “gender fascists” want us to do
I too write a blog, and personally, I believe in quality over quantity. Some bloggers, I won’t name names, publish daily, sometimes several times a day, and much of what they post is not worth reading. And this can be true on what some might perceive as both sides.
Yes, there is a lot of stupidity out there. I have one topic I have wanted to write on for some time, but it is a topic that will keep. In the meantime, I have done several stories that were more timely, and I have at least one more that I need to write soon. It is, simply put, too much to ignore.
It is important for us to provide a voice from what is, in effect, the opposition.
The Double Standards of Autumn Sandeen
From Autumn Sandeen in an article at PHB entitled Whats my sex, what’s my gender”
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/10981/whats-my-sex-whats-my-gender-and-other-us-census-related-lgbt-thoughts
R..E..A..L..L..Y!
But it’s ok for Sandeen to continually write articles that associate post operative transsexuals as transgender.
Its also ok for Sandeen to ban from commenting on PHB, those people that advocate any seperation from transgender identities.
In an article written by Sandeen discussing what is and is not acceptable at PHB when discussing transsexuals and the transgender entitled “Transgender? Transsexual? Trans-Ghettoized?”
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6072
Just not “OUT” enough to check the “transgender/other” box on a census form it would seem..
I guess I’m not getting how it is that GLBs *as a group* are condescending toward WBT/HBS/post-ops, and even less how blasting them on a blog is helpful. I’m not even sure I agree about Ms. Hennessey. Okay, she was offended by some anti-lesbian slurs (so was I), she agrees that HBS/TS likely has a neurophysiological basis but doesn’t care for some of the elitist politics (seems this site is not founded on elitist principles either), she mistook this site for an HBS site, okay… but all of that just seems paltry evidence. She is not a WBT, she comes from a lesbian feminist background. I have friends in the community who come from similar backgrounds, I don’t expect to see eye to eye with them on everything, but we have a lot of common ground and discuss without tossing insults back and forth.
Looking at her posts from last year on http://www4.soapblox.net/pam/showDiary.do?diaryId=4655, her heart seems to be in the right place anyway. What am I missing?
How are GLBs, as a group, condescending toward WBT/HBS/post-ops? That should be pretty obvious. Simply forcing us into the larger “LGBT” (okay, I live in San Francisco, and here, it is “ladies first”) is condescending. We are often treated as though any who do not wish to identify as “transgender” are somehow, just deluded. We need to be “gently corrected” and if that doesn’t work, we need to be forcibly corrected.
Now, let me correct an oft repeated misconception, or perhaps misrepresentation….HBS is not an identity, it is not a “poliical thing,” it is not elitist. It is simply an attemtp to present a new terminology. The word “transsexual” has taken on some pretty heavy baggage, ranging from it being heavily co-opted by some who are not remotely transsexual to its use as a label for “she-male” pornography.
Simply put, HBS is simply offered as a term for what Benjamin called a “true transsexual.” It is intended for those who knew, at least before puberty, that there was something wrong. It is an objective concept, as opposed to the highly subjective, vague concepts of the “transgender model.”
In fact, it is possible for someone who is HBS to identify as “transgender.” But for most, upon observing the concepts that increasingly underlie “transgender” they will come to reject that model.
hypatia’s child;
Maybe the problem lies in
Sandeen’s insistence Sandeen is something (he she or whatever) is not.
Maybe it is Sandeen’s marriage to the homosexual political engine.
When most of us see the marginalization the homosexual political machine has done to the true transsexuals.
Maybe it’s the fact Sandeen has always been an out and proud non-op.
Maybe it’s jsut the fact Sandeen clings to her man past and won’t let it go just like Donna Rose, and Monica Helms.
Maybe in the eyes of the standards of care most of us had to deal with Sandeen hasn’t transitioned and is nothing more than a full time crossdresser.
A
The problem is that Maura and the rest of the GLBT doesn’t see any difference between TG and real transsexual men and women. Implicit in these calls for peace is the notion that all of us are quite deluded, and that they are merely humoring us. And we should be grateful for the indulgence.
There are some people who were born with this difference, and some who were not. The ones who were not are, in effect, telling lies.
Maybe I’m not in the loop enough, but from what I’ve seen I don’t think the GLB as a group force us into LGBT, I think we’re dragged there by default by virtue of being lumped together under the “T” (really TG) umbrella. It’s very much in the interest of TG activists to seek alliance with other groups under the “big tent”, because by themselves, their numbers are much smaller. So their belonging is quite voluntary and no fault of GLBs. It is by insisting that we are TG as well, and by virtue of their larger numbers relative to us, and also their higher visibility (being “out and proud”) that they manage to trap us there as well.
I’ve certainly gotten the “gentle correction” from TG-identified people when I’ve dared to object to “transgender” as a label for myself, but never from lesbian friends. It simply shows how effective the TG juggernaut has been that the only point of reference people have for someone who has had a sex change is TG. If I say that I rejected my assigned birth sex, they say “I see, you mean you’re transgendered.” They don’t mean to force me into that identity, they simply don’t understand why certain distinctions are important to me. It’s not their life and experience, so if I want them to understand, it’s my job to explain.
Now I have only a tiny circle of friends in the L community who know my past, but so far, no one has insisted that I was really TG when I explained the difference. Perhaps that’s because they know me as a person rather than as words on a screen? Just a thought.
They may not have been the initial force, but now that the show is on the road there is a definite pecking order there. The sort of grass-roots developments have been normed and tamed by the top-down lobby structure, so we are really talking about separate entities. Those at the top of the heap in the HRC seem to issue orders, and their TG agents like the Mara Keislings carry them out to the detriment of their own “constituents”. Why should any of us be forced into that?
As it is now, the sole purpose of the GLBT is to get certain gay men some marriage rights. After they get theirs, it will be the BLT on its own, and the issues of poverty and discrimination faced by people in that group will still be there.
And if history is any indication, elements of the former homosexual male lobby will set about keeping the status quo, denying rights to minorities that are still “unprotected”, completing their assimilation into the mainstream.
On another note… All these non-TG allies who proclaim their belief in the TG spectrum, who take people at their word that they are whatever gender they say they are. Do these people believe their own gender is mutable and merely an artifact of a social system, really? If the TG paradigm of gender-is-meaningless is applied fully it deprives everyone, not just TG people, of their identity. How does that sit with people in the GLB?
Quick Question and sorry it is off topic, but I know the people who read this would be the best to answer. Something just suddenly occurred to me…
So Classic T/True T/HBS is a medical condition like cancer right? And those who don’t desire surgery don’t really have the medical condition right? Does that mean that people who opt out of radiation to treat their tumors don’t really have cancer?
I’m sure y’all have a simple answer to this, to show the disanalogy, but I thought I’d ask.
Let me put it to you this way, Ashley…those who are true transsexuals, or who have HBS (the terms mean essentially the same thing) have a deep seated need to be normal. Now, just as someone might, for some strange reason, decide to not seek treatment for cancer, the result would be that, in time, the cancer would destroy them. By the same token, one who is truly transsexual, or who has HBS, might resist the need for correction, but over time, their condition would also destroy them, perhaps not physically, but emotionally.
When I read stories from people who lived long and successful lives, who had successful careers, even to the point of retiring from the military after years of service as a male, and then they suddenly discover that they are “transsexual,” I just roll my eyes, and have a good laugh.
But to answer your initial question…well, it is actually absurd. Clearly, as you say, those who do not desire to correct the dichotomy between their brain and their body do not have a dichtomy between their body and their brain and therefor do not have HBS or are not true transsexuals. That is the end of the issue. Desire for treatment clearly, on the other hand, has nothing to do with having cancer. Your question is contradictory and ultimately makes no sense at all.
Jennifer, I thought surgery was treatment for HBS just like radiation is treatment for cancer?
Oh wait I get it Jennifer!
So what I was confusing was, I thought HBS was the mismatch of brain sex and body sex, and the treatment of HBS was surgery….thus leading to the cancer analogy. That is wrong.
Rather, HBS is just the pathological desire for surgery and once you have it the symptoms just go away so HBS is more like a cold, it doesn’t have any treatment, but eventually its symptoms just run their course!
Thank you so much for your help.
So I don’t have a pathological desire for surgery, I have a mismatch between my brain sex and body sex, I also think surgery will fix that problem. What do I have then?
Ashley;
If you were borne with a disfiguring birth defect, and it was correctable wouldn’t you want it corrected if you could arrange for the surgical correction / reconstruction to take place?
You ether wanted to correct the birth defect or your a tranny.
It’s that simple.
A
Sandeen Helm Syndrome
oh and p.s. I was born with such a condition and am having it corrected. But I know lots of people who don’t. They still have the condition and every doctor in the world would agree with that.
Tons of deaf people choose not to have ear implants that will correct their deafness.
Tons of people with really disfiguring “wine stains” choose not to get their skin dyed.
Tons of cancer patients refuse treatment.
I don’t really see much of a difference. Is HBS a medical condition like deafness, cancer, and wine stains, or isn’t it!?
Ashley said…
“oh and p.s. I was born with such a condition and am having it corrected. But I know lots of people who don’t. They still have the condition and every doctor in the world would agree with that.”
You only have their word for it not much to go on.
I could tell you I was borne with three breasts, and came from the planet Hilzoe.
People who have the condition have a desire to be normal, that includes having the right genitals.
Draw all the apologies you want.
Many trannys now say they are going to have the surgery in order to hide their true nature.
Leigh is right it’s called; Sandeen Helm Syndrome. (SHS)
A
You were either born with the condition, or you weren’t. Seeking treatment is irrelevant to its presence or absence. But if you are aware of the nature of your condition, you won’t stop until it is fixed, unless you are mentally imbalanced.
Ashley is one of those types who like to torture people who really do have this condition. I’ve seen lots of these people on the few forums that used to exist to help people through the process. They especially like to prey on the fear of insecurity of the younger transitioners.
They would show up, pretend to have the condition, and then using that false ‘legitimacy’ proceed to tear down everyone who was trying so hard to get themselves cured.
What’s worse is when one of these people actually do have the birth condition, but then fall hard for the genderqueer politics. They have all the self-righteous bluster of an ex-smoker who now feels the need to cleanse other of their sins. Arrogant and smug, this type gets really ugly in their abuse of people who don’t agree with their politics.
Bottom line, it’s abusive and bordering on sociopathic behavior. And that’s exactly the kind of thing we expect from the the so-called GLBT. Thanks for illustrating the point so well Ashley.
It isnt about what HBS/Classic Transsexuality is, it’s about what it is not.
It is not about keeping your penis and calling it a neo clit.
It is not about gay pride.
It is not about freedom of expression.
It is not about the dressing femme on weekends.
It is not about being a full time crossdresser.
It is not about trying to trick men that you are a woman.
It is not about politics.
It is not about social equality.
It is not about being argumentative, or homophobic or transphobic.
It is not about being a transvestite or a gender queer.
It is about the need and the will to correct a birth condition through surgury and doing so to fit in as best as possible with the sex that you are targeting.
No Ashley, you don’t get it, and you are not nearly as clever as you think. If you have a mismatch between your brain and your body, AND you were aware of this before puberty, then yes, you would be considered to have HBS. Otherwise, well, you don’t. You see, unlike transgender, HBS is an objective concept. Whether you achieve surgery is beside the point. But, let me put it this way, if you can function without transition and surgery, or if you transition and/or have surgery and you life does not improve (and there are plenty of examples of this) then no, you are not HBS.
No Ashley, they don’t have the condition. And to be honest, if you can’t sense the difference, then perhaps you should reconsider having surgery. It is not for everyone. And quite frankly, in those cases where it is not the right choice, it can do more harm than good.
I would love to see statistics to back up your claims. The only one that is really applicable at all is deafness. And even that is not a perfect analogy. But, the connection is this…some deaf people have developed a form of identity politics that holds that somehow deafness is what defines them, and they have developed a deaf culture, and because of this they choose to forego treatment rather than face being attacked by their “community.” Those who do choose to have their deafness corrected often lose friends or even family.
But, the only way it would really be the same would be if people were falsely claiming to be deaf, and then also saying they do not need correction. You see, that is the real heart of the matter. Some have this bizarre need to claim to be something they are not.
Sandeen Helm Syndrome….I like it. If leigh does not object, I may use that in a posting, giving credit of course.
But yes, part of being HBS is that desire to be normal. The opposite, seen in many, like Sandeen and and Helms, is a strong desire to NOT be normal.
Ariablue, I believe you have Ashley pegged quite perfectly.
Leigh, all I can add is, well put!
Ashley, I really have tried to be patient with you…I really have. But the above comment, as well as those that followed are simply ridiculous and meant for no reason other than to stir up trouble on my blog.
Cancer patients who opt out of radiation or chemotherapy treatment are invariably those whose cancer is terminal, inoperable and of whom such unpleasant treatment would only serve to minimally prolong an inevitable and painful death. People who opt out of further treatment simply want to live what little time they have left with dignity without using what little time they may have left undergoing debilitating radiation and chemotherapy. No sane cancer patient would opt out of radiation or chemotherapy therapy, no matter how unpleasant it might be, if there was even the most remote of chances that such treatment would prolong their lives and restore them to better health. Your analogy is absolutely childish, juvenile, and just plain stupid beyond compare.
I’ve watched your blog remarks both here and on other blogs…and suffered through your YouTube efforts and am certain of one thing, medical condition or not, you are not a classic transsexual, a true transsexual, nor can you even claim the basics of Harry Benjamin Syndrome; you are transgender through and through. If you can’t contribute anything interesting to my blog, or at the very least on topic, then go somewhere else with your silly crap. I don’t care if you don’t agree with what my blog says. I don’t even care if you read my blog much less whether you comment here or not…statistics drive other blogs, but not this one.
Grow the hell up.
Actually, my question was purely academic.
Due to some recent health problems I had seen a new doctor who gave me a karotype and an MRI. Turns out I am AIS with a partial uterus. So, unlike y’all, I’m not trans anything, classic, true, magical, HBS, or whatever. I’m intersex.
You wouldn’t be the only one here.
Would it surprise you to find out the number of IS or people with disorders of sexual development are many times higher in the TG/TS population than in the mainstream.
Your situation is not unusual it is quite ordinary.
and she thinks WE are elitists !
I few friends and acquaintances have mentioned to me that this column existed, so I finally gave way to my curiousity and read.
My only purpose in this post is to correct some misperceptions concerning my public views.
Firstly;
I do not believe that what you refer to as classic transsexuality is the same or even comes from the same cause as other forms of anatomically discordant gender expression. Having known a number of women of operative history, there is no way, having known them, that I could see them as existing upon a spectrum as an occasional drag performer.
Secondly;
I do believe that women of operative history ought to be able to speak with their own voice politically. Their agenda, their needs as women of unique history, is different.
Thirdly;
It is not within the pervue of this or that Lesbian to determing where the dividing line between genuinely female and everything else lies. Those that do so, for instance, the hard core seond wave separatists, end up looking like a ridiculous caricature of Horatius at the Bridge; “guarding” the sanctity of the term woman.
The reality is that those of us not in the grips of a philisophical viewpoint inherently hostile and predicated on a simplistic “either-or” paradigm in the end use a simple test to determine whether or not someone is a woman.
Either they “vibe” woman,” or they do not do so.
sorry about the typos….interruptions, interruptions…
Maura said;
“Either they “vibe” woman,” or they do not do so.”
Seems we use the same test.
I have read some of your posts and comments on Bilerico I have at times felt your comments were patronizing at times.
But I don’t post there because that place does not resonate with my feelings.
The Project like many housing projects is a ghetto of sorts. The project is run by homosexual men who haven’t a clue what it is to be borne with a birth defect that is not medically recognized. That whole place is all about sex, sex and more sex. How any self respecting woman would want to wallow in that place is beyond me.
The only reason anybody here would even think of posting there is to set them straight on issues involving women borne with the birth defect we are borne with.
Thank you for stopping by and posting your comments.
A
Hi all,
Not entirely welcome here, I know, but I read through the comments and the posting and want to note a few things.
For one, mean and bitchy as I am to Leigh and Susan, I really do like them.
Personally, I can’t say that you are, indeed, doomed to fail. No, that doesn’t mean I’m crossing over to the dark side. It means that there is *some* merit to the arguments you make.
Susan’s right — the way a lot of this stuff is presented (and I call Sue and Jennifer out on that as exceptional examples of such) is horribly insensitive. Due to that, it alienates.
But the ideas underlying it have merit — I disagree for various reasons science wise, politically, socially — and do indeed need to be heard.
I freely admit I have no problem deleting a post that’s offensive to me from my blog — that’s not censorship, that’s enforcing a standard of behavior.
But regardless of how any of us feel, one of the reasons that all the arguments — the HBS folks, here, the people you oppose, and even more — are important is that they give the full spectrum of experience and *that* is what ultimately will erase such things as stigma and insinuation.
If there was one thing I could ask for — and I am under no illusion that I can do so here — it would be that you focus your arguments in a manner that is more aware of minority trans experience. Hate to put it this way, because its rude and I’m trying not to be such, but most of what you right strikes me as “mighty white of ya”, in that it tends to come from a perspective that’s literally the opposite of the ethnic folks that’s I’m used to. I don’t deal with white transfolk all that much because, well, they are indeed mighty white all too often.
If you feel frustrated, well, be aware that even though I do dump on you often, I also listen to you, and sometimes your comments inform my positions on things. So you have an impact.
And you can indeed make a difference.
Not much, I realize, but that’s what I see. So you aren’t pissing in the wind — you are pissing into the pond. Right next to ten times as many people pissing into it as well.
Just my thoughts.
mighty white!
Now, you look here little lady… I want you to know that I have the deepest respect for african american tranny folk, in fact you can come work for me any ole time you please!
The pay is below minimum wage, the hours are long and you gets a whole half day off a week, which would be sunday morning so’s you can go to church and sing and dance like I know you black folk like to do…
but rest assured little lady, you’ll be treated just like family
“Susan’s right — the way a lot of this stuff is presented (and I call Sue and Jennifer out on that as exceptional examples of such) is horribly insensitive. Due to that, it alienates.”
Life is so hard isn’t it.
I feel your pain.
Dysonnance, rational people do not attempt to be “mean and bitchy” to people they like.
Dysonnance, whether you think there is merit to the debate we carry on here or not is meaningless.
Dysonnance, I don’t delete comments here simply because they are offensive to me, to do so is a sign of censorship which is synonymous with cowardice and the inability to converse in written debate.
Dysonnance, nothing but a total, complete, and absolute break from the GLBT will ever erase the “stigma and insinuation” that is propagated by transsexual’s current association to them…regardless of the TS’s sexual identity.
Dysonnance, I resent you inferring this blog has racist overtones.
Dysonnance, you have taken so many things I have said in comments on this and other blogs and addressed them out of context that I have no respect for you, whatsoever.
Dysonnance, you are transgender and proud of it…go ahead and continue spreading their word, as you say you will.
Dysonnance, this is not a pro transgender or GLBT site.
racist? … nah I am equal opportunity !
This just in from MSNBC
“LOS ANGELES – Chastity Bono, the child of Cher and Sonny Bono, has started the process of becoming a transgender individual.”
I wonder which “process” that would be ?
Well…there is all that paperwork. And then there is the licensing exam…oh yes, it is quite a process. Not as hard as becoming a lesbian, but still, there is a lot of stuff involved.
“This just in from MSNBC
“LOS ANGELES – Chastity Bono, the child of Cher and Sonny Bono, has started the process of becoming a transgender individual.”
I wonder which “process” that would be ?”
her biological clock it ticking not much time left to be the second knocked up man.
This is what i mean by junk yard dogs.
Cut. Bleed. Cut. Bleed. Laugh laugh laugh.
This is why people should communicate with each other through email to work out issues and find some common ground.
On a board, ego and posturing more easily get in the way with an audience.
which common ground would that be?
I think Susan said it best when she said …
“this is not a pro transgender or GLBT site.”
Well put Leigh. I was wondering the same thing. Of course, that is exactly what the TG crowd wants. If they can get us to talk about “common ground” it contributes to their position that we are all the same.
There is no common ground.
When Tee-Gees find out women of operative experience want to live as normal women they get all bent out of shape, attack and out women of operative history.
Anonymous-T-Girl where is the common ground when you have penis people like Helms and Sandeen making fools of themselves.
We are junk yard dogs because in today’s world everything has to be worded to not offend anyone, and when we don’t subscribe to that way of thinking, we are called junk yard dogs.
Let us know how all that diplomacy works for you. Last I saw, you were being chased out of Billerico by helms and co.
Yeah.
Monica Helms csn’t stand me. Monica Roberts won’t respond to me. Autumn Sandeen should hate my guts by now.
i think i’ve successfully pissed off every everybody at Bilerico. Everyone here wishes i would just go away.
That’s me, a real bitch on wheels.
Too up-tight and conservative for the transgender crowd. To open and liberal for the transsexual crowd.
Guess i’m real screwed.
Strangely, i still wake up in the morning with a chronic case of not giving a damn.
Anonymous-T-Girl;
Really what we want is for you to wake up.
every so often you post something that sounds like something I may have posted at one time.
What do you want to be.
A tranny or
A woman
Did you transition for cheap thrills or
To be Real and stop living a Lie.
……………………
They are not your friends.
Being politically correct won’t get you anywhere.
After close to 10 years of fighting with them on line I quit. They all can just go to hell, I have no use for them.
Monica Helms is a disgusting peace of work.
Sandeen equally so.
Monica Roberts is a racist.
Oh by the way;
Your blog is interesting reading.
You are welcome here among us happy band of misfits.
Ya see …
we done what they only think they could do…..
and that makes us successful…..
it irks them…..
it tears at their very being….
no matter what they do…
we have them beat…
….and they hate us for it.
It takes a very couragous dog to run a junkyard. Many apply, few succeed .
Why? Why would you want me here?
i have an unwanted penis. Therefore you consider me nothing more than ‘an especially freaky gay man’.
Why would i want to associate with someone who despises me, and will even refer to me as male for a junior high laugh?
And i can’t stand resisting the urge to lay this out any longer.
Leigh, you’ve made some comments and expressed some thoughts i could agree with, as have a couple of others here.
A few just bobble their head up and down like a dashboard doll.
But as for ‘Just Jennifer’. You are a bundle of irrational hate that drags down and poisons everything you touch.
Anything that any conservative T articulates that stands a chance of gaining ground with newcomers dies a quick death everytime when you show up and spray your special brand of support all over it.
Do me a favor. Don’t ever, ever voice support for anything i may say in the future that you might happen to agree with.
Anonymous-T-Girl, I had planned on pointing out that anyone who can piss off both Sandeen, Helms, and Roberts and then also anger people here is doing pretty good. Then you had to go and post this. Now, I’m not sure what I did to get your panties in such a wad. I actually don’t recall encounterig you that much, if at all.
Oh well, it could be any of a number of things. Sorry my posts terrify you so much, but hey, I take it as a compliment.
Apparently your main purpose is to divide and conquer. Oh well…
Leigh, you have hit he nail on the head. Before I transitioned, I was a very miserable, unsuccessful person. Then my life started gettting better. I was able to focus, my work history improved considerably, and I became a far more functional member of society.
On the other hand, I look at a lot of the TG activists, and their lives seem to be total wrecks. How many of them are on disability, and that almost always for mental issues. A few hold down regular jobs, but they are generally with companies that have policies that protect them.
And even the ones who now claim to be surgery tracked have long histories of attacking post-op women who are successful.
And on the rare occasion one of them lucks up and gets surgery (usually through some means that hands it to them on a platter) they wind up regretting it. Maybe not openly, but they become even more obnoxious and go off on radical tangents and even attack the very idea of surgery, working to either discourage others or supporting ridiculous standards that would effectively block surgery for others.
Ah well Jenn, its hard to please all the people even most of the time. Sure as hell there are plenty of people that don’t care for what I write either but I say .. fuck em if they don’t like it.
My mom was very supportive of me my whole life. She would tell me to always stand up for myself no matter what. I was pretty successful prior to transition, pretty successfull after. I often wonder how much transition cost me in terms of my business life, how much more successfull I would have been had it not been an issue in my life, but heck those are the breaks. We simply don’t get to choose both forks of the path of our lives, and thats what seperates us from those with Sandeen Helms syndrome.
They want it both ways. Hell, I want it both ways too, and down the middle and round every bend, but life just don’t work that way. I was born in the UK, emigrated to the US when I was 27yo. Just got on a plane one day and didn’t look back. I wanted more in life than the lower middle class background of the UK had to offer.
Most of all I wanted to transition. Secondly I wanted to own and fly a warbird. Couldn’t have both. Choices suck but we make them, and we move on.
Yeah, that’s it. i’m real terrified all right.
Not sure what you’re babbling about with ‘divide and conquer’. It does deviate a little from the zip-cord responses that usually cycle out of your mouth.
If it’s some weird paranoia that i’m trying to ‘divide’ people here, no. i couldn’t give enough of a damn to do something like that. What would be the point?
Communicating directly with the actual site owner works fine for me.
your attitude stinks!
Oh well
Leigh,I know…and as I have said more than once, I can’t take responsibility for someone else’s bigotry or ignorance.
I had several men make comments about how I had “the best of both worlds.” I told them no, one of those worlds was not for me, and I wanted no part of it. If that works for someone, then no, they should not have surgery. If they do, it will be a tragic mistake. I mean, Helms and Sandeen should never give up their penises. I imagine that they will regret it if they ever actually manage to get it paid for.
Yes, “Oh well…” sums it up quite nicely.
ENOUGH on Monica Helms and Autumn Sandeen just for the sake of taking a punch at them. I’ve said it before, go to their site if they bother one of you so bad…go to their own site and make those comments…last request! This site is not a platform for that kind of BS…if they make a comment here or somewhere else that one feels is worth dissecting, then fine, but enough of the pot shots; I’m sick of seeing them.
Sorry, my bad.