By Leigh Smith
In a recent attempt to actually get something done, Cathryn Platine recently launched an Internet petition aimed at GLAAD entitled “Let our people go”. THE PETITION is an attempt to show the GLB and the transgender movement that many of their so-called supporters are not happy being included in with the umbrella term “transgender”.
The petition itself has been slow to acquire signatures and even if it were to do so is not likely to effect any significant action by GLAAD. The transgender have already used it as a venue to slam its very purpose. Nonetheless, as the site has become more known the numbers of those signing it are steadily mounting. The reality is that those of whom it would benefit are generally not even aware it exists.
I don’t think anyone among us really expects earth shattering change due to the petition but many if not most have signed it in a show of solidarity. Some see it as an alternative to simply doing nothing other than firing shots across “no man’s land” in the hope of picking someone off. We don’t have declared wars in the 21st Century, we have conflicts and skirmishes that do nothing more than make things worse. In the current environment we yak a lot, and then we yak some more and if all else fails, someone else takes over the yakking for us. We pull out our charts and graphs, our papers and studies, point to expert opinion and quote everyone else’s theories as if they are divine indications from the gods that our opinion is the opinion that actually means something. Naturally, the other side does the same and reams of type filled paper flow endlessly back and forth across the trenches like a junior high spitball war. Behind the scenes of all this, there are those that are actively doing something and working furiously to determine our future. They care not the consequences nor do they assess the damages. They are revered as activists, those that are out in the real trenches, up to their poopick in State and Federal bullshit, keeping it real and “down” with “the man” on Capitol Hill.
The HBS (Harry Benjamin Syndrome) movement, if one can actually call it a movement, (I have experienced better movements in my bathroom) are a group of mostly post operative transsexual women that don’t like to be considered transgender or trans anything. Their headquarters features a mind numbing array of scientific papers and opinion pieces aimed primarily at illustrating how they are different than the transgender and therefore are not like the transgender…which is admirable, classic transsexuals are indeed not like the transgender. They tout that science will set us free and that scientific discovery from every obscure source on the planet proves conclusively that HBS women are at the top of the food chain when it comes to who is more entitled to call themselves “real” in the tranny world. Hell, they even sub-categorize among themselves with, of course, Lisa Thompson at the top of the hierarchy as the bad cop, and Sharon Gaughan, Lisa’s life partner as the ever reasoning good cop. Both are post operative women, both are HBS, both are lesbians and both support the LGB while openly stating that they do not support the “T” inclusion associated with it. Actually, I think they prefer to think of themselves as bisexual, essentially meaning they ride the fence…and boy do they ride the fence. Their Gestapo is made up of those readers that all agree with each other, as well as with Lisa and Sharon, on just about every point of just about every article; they chastise those who question the official HBS line and ridicule anyone that comes by with a different approach…they are the masters of condescension.
Yes, all is well in HBS land. The science will set us free.
Lisa apparently works at the Pentagon and was born of working class parents that trace their roots back to John Adams. Her writing skill, though reasonably acceptable, is only slightly surpassed by her subtle put downs of anyone that has the nerve to take her to task. One would assume that someone employed at the Pentagon, with a security clearance to enter the top echelons of America’s premier military establishment, must be beyond question, though the reality is even the janitors and secretaries have to be vetted to enter those sacred halls…an analyst, in Pentagonese, could be anything from someone who decyphers classified photos to the clerk who reviews expense reports each month; who knows what she really does (or cares). Nevertheless, we all love our star players and few dare to tread heavily on their domain unless, going in, they are prepared for reprisal.
Though meant to be a bit satirical, the story of both Lisa and Sharon is that they seem to remember the first time they realized they were born in the wrong body. While the rest of us were lying in our cribs crying out loud for our parents to change our diapers, Sharon and Lisa were apparently contemplating why mommy and daddy referred to them as “he”, or worse, ”…their little boy”. Things just didn’t seem right and by age 9 months, both were up and around reading scientific papers put out by Harry Benjamin’s cronies. At age 2, Lisa was asked to lecture at several university’s and Sharon was inducted into the All Women’s Handball team at the then exclusive, all women’s, Vassar College. According to the HBS handbook, anyone that didn’t experience such early knowledge of their gender anomaly are classified as late onset transgender influenced by male hormones and only learned to be transsexual after experimenting with female underwear. However, that, in itself, apparently doesn’t relegate someone to the TG or AGP pile if one can repent of their early sins, confess to the group, and experience a one-ness with them akin to honorary membership into the club.
Such was the case of a recent article penned by Lisa Thompson entitled “Doing It Pretty Up And Walking Good: A Pre-op in Cleveland”. This piece was a doozie and the entire gang weighed in. This article should be required reading for anyone wanting to know how the HBS mindset works. The premise of this article revolved around one Karen Deamons, a pre-op transsexual (an HBS woman concludes Lisa) who wanted to use the woman’s locker room, just like any other woman.
“Karen Deamons knew she was female by the time she was ten or eleven – later than many, earlier than some others. Like many others who felt the need to meet their parent’s expectations, Deamons did not act on that inner knowledge until years later. The child’s desire to please their parents, the human need to fit in and be just like everyone else can lead HBS men and women to lead lives which they know do no match their real identity. Raised and socialized as male, Deamons married twice as a man and has three children. Eventually, like many HBS women, she could no longer live a lie.”
Sounds plausible so far, eh? Especially considering that neither Lisa nor Sharon are exactly long term post ops themselves even though they knew they were HBS at age 2.
Well the comments rolled in one after the other. Many HBS women were asking Lisa for clarification of Karen Deamon’s HBS-ness and stated that Lisa had described a person that fell more into the realm of transgender as they knew it. Other HBS women admonished the nay sayers and called for understanding and acceptance for this unfortunate person’s plight. Still more HBS women actually went so far as to ask who are the HBS to even judge this person in the first place.
I watched…and read…and then simply asked them all to sign THE PETITION. The result? I was verbally taken to task by the HBS hoards.
Reading the exchanges, it occurred to me that these HBS women were taking on the HBS label not only to distinguish themselves from the transgender but now to hijack the very definition of transsexuality. And, in doing so, deciding to put themselves in the position of judge and jury.
For sure, if you go over the dozens of articles and comments at HBS Central, you will find these same people agreeing with both Lisa and Sharon on a number of subjects with a common anti-transgender theme. Now, however, this little club, after setting themselves up as something other than everyone else and certainly not transgender, has the gall to admonish others for bringing judgment on Karen Deamons. They were, in effect, split on the decision to allow Karen Deamons to define as HBS.
If that is not an act of judgment then I don’t know what is.
I then made the following post to TS-Si:
“You come up with a term (HBS) that has the full intention of setting yourself apart from others in a group and then you say it’s not fair to judge others!
There are countless articles on TS-Si that are judgmental of all things transgender along with plenty of comments that reflect elitism and the setting apart of, and the differences between, HBS and TG. Then along comes one case where an individual that could just as easily be TG as they could be HBS and you fall all over yourselves to call for compassion, understanding, and being non-judgmental.
For the record there are plenty of Ms. Daemons out there with similar hard luck stories, and unfortunate tales they are indeed. They range the gamut from full time crossdressers to paraplegics and most of them will state emphatically that they are women and always have been, and each of them will say they have known since they were a child, they just never acted on it till they saw everyone else doing it.
Are they HBS or are they transgender? Who knows…who really cares?
If your going to set yourselves apart then at least do so with conviction and own up to the fact that by doing so, you have already decided to judge others.”
Anyway, getting back to THE PETITION, you do remember THE PETITION don’t you? Well, if you don’t you are in good company. Apparently Lisa, Sharon and most of the other HBS women forgot about it shortly after it was not endorsed by TS-Si. Lisa and Sharon have refused to sign it and in fact won’t even endorse it to their readership, lamely claiming they are non-partisan and it will some how violate their non-profit status. Both of them have said they ‘personally’ agree with the principle of it but claim they cannot in good faith sign it…like that makes any sense all.
Well…so much for solidarity, and TS-Si’s support…or their desire to actually do something other than pass out trinkets at Pride parades.
The transgender are right about one thing, there is a “spectrum”, a continuum if you will, upon which we all fit somewhere. The transgender believe it is one in which male/crossdressers are on one end and female/transsexuals are on the other. Based on the fact (and depending on what stats one wants to believe) that there have been some 40-60 thousand gender reassignment surgeries performed in the United States alone since 1960 and that the vast majority of those post ops have disappeared into the mainsteam, do not identify as either HBS or transgender, don’t comment on either position, and are not active members or participants of any particular blog group…the petition has shown us that on this imaginary spectrum, we have the transgender on the left, the HBS on the right and the very over whelming majority of post ops firmly in the middle…with no comment or opinion either way. THE PETITION might have an effect if it were available on non-trans, non-HBS, non-GLB media platforms where this silent majority of post ops reside, but for the most part the results suggest that most post-ops have moved on with their lives and do not visit or participate in any of this.
Perhaps there is something worth learning there.
Get involved…sign THE PETITION…help us break from the transgender umbrella and move away from the HBS radical fanatics.
26 Comments
yes, Leigh, there is something worth learning there.
ITs that people like MOnica Helms, Marti abernathy, that awful Dyssonance, and other activists working on behalf of the t are doing all this work not for those of us who finish transition and cease being a trans-whatever (by virtue of the “cure” or whatever else you want to call it) and, as you so aptly put it, get on with their lives.
They will benefit, but, really, the problems aren’t going to be those of us who pass — who woodwork and blend in and cease being something other than *just* a woman.
But there are many who are still transitioning late, and going through that RLE, and still *learning*, as well as those who, in the end…
… Will never pass.
They will always look to “other people” like men in dresses.
Ultimately, they are the ones for whom all that activism takes place. Because they will never be able to escape such things, and for *anyone* to say to them “don’t transition because you’ll make an ugly woman” is pretty damned stupid.
That’s why I say to Cathryn — and iirc, you, as well — just stay out of those things. If you don’t identify within the subject population, and you can woodwork without issue, then hell, get on with your bad selves and do what, ultimately, all these activists will do eventually.
Which is get their surgery and move on, themselves. It is, after all, the end goal…
As much as HBS people would like to believe it is a medical Syndrome, it is not. The people who made it up are laypersons who have absolutely no medical qualifications whatsoever. The AMA does not recognize their unsigned Standards Of Care. In truth they hijacked Harry Benjamin’s name without permission. A peer review Site http://harrybenjaminsyndrome-not-transsexual.com/index.html debunks HBS as a medical fraud. They put down not only Transgender people but Transsexual post-ops who don’t agree with them. A layperson cannot just change medical terms because they don’t like them even if it is to put themselves above everyone else. Fortunately their numbers are small and insignificant. They just talk louder to create the illusion of more.
Laura Amato
Laura:
The essay Leigh wrote was more of an observation of some of the individuals who support what is known as Harry Benjamin Syndrome than as an attack on the concept of it.
When you make the statement:
I can’t agree with that statement at all. In the interest of objectivity, the link that you offer up as a “peer review”, Laura’s Harry Benjamin Syndrome HBS: A Peer Review, is, in my opinion, anything but that. But that aside, that web page has a link to the very well respected GIRES (Gender Identity Research and Education Society) Definition and Synopsis of the Etiology of Adult Gender Identity Disorder and Transsexualism. GIRES has long held that transsexualism is a medical condition. Even a brief read of GIRES’s etiology of transsexualism certainly leads to that conclusion, i.e., transsexualism is a medical condition.
But that page also brings up what I think is the point. No where on that page will you see the word transgender. Transsexualism alone is considered a medical condition. GIRES defines transsexualism in the very first paragraph as (emphasis mine):
The rest of the page addresses transsexualism. It doesn’t go on about crossdressers, it doesn’t address non-ops who choose not to have surgery, it doesn’t address any of the other transgender subgroups…it addresses transsexuals, and only transsexuals. And it references all kinds of medical research to substantiate why transsexuals are different.
As a note, GIRES is not some lightweight, flake of a group. They are one of the leaders if not the leading group associated with gender identity research.
You might think, yes, transsexualism is a medical condition, but Harry Benjamin Syndrome is a made up medical condition invented by a group of lay people. And on that, I would also agree. But, I don’t think that is the point. HBS is transsexualism. It is transsexualism as was classically defined by Harry Benjamin back in the late 1940’s as well as GIRES in our current era. They both defined it the same, that being some people are so bent over their gender dysphoria that they “need to adapt their phenotype with hormones and surgery to make it congruent with their gender identity.” The operative phase is “hormones AND surgery.” It’s the “surgery” part that separates transsexuals from everyone else.
Those who profess the HBS concept feel that the general definition of transsexualism has been taken over by those groups who fall under the transgender umbrella. And, in that regard, I agree with them whole heartedly. To that group, the invention of HBS was an effort to reclaim the legitimacy that classic transsexualism once had.
Leigh’s article mentions a Bell Curve in which she essentially says that the transgender are one the extreme left, the HBS advocates are on the extreme right, and the very vast majority of pre and post operative transsexuals are in the middle. I think that is very good analogy. But to go one step further, I am more than sure that the transsexuals, as defined by Benjamin then and GIRES now, and of which includes the HBS crowd, fully realize that transsexualism is 1) a medical condition, and 2) classic transsexuals are etiologically completely different than all of the other transgender categories. With that said, I believe that the vast majority of transsexuals who reside in the middle of Leigh’s spectrum abhor the tactics that the most radical of the HBS push…and in that regard, I agree with much if not most of the comment you posted here.
Right here and now, I will tell you that I don’t know of one classic transsexual, pre or post op, who looks down on any of the individuals who might be classified, for lack of a better phrase, gender variant…not one. A tired argument is that classic transsexuals come across as elitist. No one I knows feels that way. We are different from the transgender, yes…but we are not better in any stretch of the imagination. That is a true statement and I would argue that classic transsexuals as a whole believe that. Unfortunately, making a statement like that bothers the transgender quite a lot, which is just too bad I suppose. Nonetheless, it is true. So, yes, we may be different, but we are no better. Our issue is not with the individual person but the transgender movement as a whole and those whose advocacy insinuates we are de facto members. If that doesn’t sit well with some, then and only then do we have a problem with any specific individual.
Classic transsexuals, either preop and on the road to surgery come hell or high water or post op do not like being included in a group in which we don’t belong. You are right, the HBS are loud to create the illusion of numbers. I suppose the point I am trying to make is though the vast majority of classic transsexuals have nothing but contempt for the noise some of the more radical HBS fanatics make, rest assured they are quite comfortable with the concept.
The HBS advocates started off on the wrong foot by setting themselves up as a legitimate, recognized, and respected medical diagnosis…right up to and including their own Standards of Care. And, further, right up to this very day they continue with that position, even though virtually anyone with any gender issue who has researched the phenomenon knows exactly what you said…it was an invention of lay people. I think that was foolish, just like you, and I think everyone has seen through that charade. But I must close by mentioning three things, 1) the HBS concept was an effort to reclaim the uniqueness and legitimacy that classic transsexualism once held before the transgender movement took it over, 2) if one actually reads what the HBS concept is they will find that it is essentially classic transsexualism, and 3) though the majority of classic transsexuals do not agree with the method and tactics of those most vocal and fanatical HBS advocates, we certainly agree that classic transsexualism is unique and different from the other groups that make up the transgender spectrum and we have had it up to the yah yahs with our legitimacy being compromised by the transgender.
dyssonance said:
Ultimately, they are the ones for whom all that activism takes place. Because they will never be able to escape such things, and for *anyone* to say to them “don’t transition because you’ll make an ugly woman” is pretty damned stupid.
I will be perfectly blunt with you: I Don’t give a flying fuck about those that don’t “pass”. I have no interest in their welfare and say to them quite bluntly if you cant cut the mustard then live with the consequences. I don’t care what someone’s inner feelings are, if they are going to embark on something as life changing as switching their gender role, they better have their shit together or suffer the consequences.
Successfull transition is not supposed to be easy. The walls are not there to keep people out, they are there to make sure that only those with true committment get through. If someone cannot “pass” in the presented gender then they should go the hell home and reconsider what he is doing, not go marching up to capitol hill with his new found internet friends claiming transgender discrimination. If a guy can’t get a job because he presents for an interview looking like a eric idol in drag, he should either give it up or learn from the experience and wait till he can do better, not go running around looking for a lawyer to sue the prospective employer for gender discrimination.
I do “woodwork” well as you call it, but that is BECAUSE I was tested in the fires. I never once expected anything from anyone and I got more than I asked for, and not once then or now did I ever expect or require anyone else to accomodate me. Your activism does us all a disservice, including those that you think your helping.
Laura:
I was going to reply to this myself but see that SA-AT said everything I could, and more.
I don’t “think” I am helping them, though, Leigh, I know, with certainty, that I am.
And while I can absolutely understand how you don’t feel much in the way of sympathy or consideration for others, I can’t help it — I do.
These people have been tested in the lines, as well, hon, just as much as just as strongly. And when you can’t even get the simple courtesy of being treated like a human being, you *should* stand up for your rights. Especially if the reason for doing so is because you “don’t look enough like a woman”.
Is what you are saying that if someone doesn’t pass they shouldn’t transition?
I never thought that was what you were saying before, and if that is what you feel, then I am aghast.
They are the ones by which we are judged, in the end. Unfairly, absolutely, but nevertheless, there it is.
You are, of course, free to feel that, and free to exclude yourself from such things to the best of your ability. And I support you dong that.
But I will not stop working on their behalf. Ever. And, in turn, I will not pretend to speak for you (though I have never claimed to do so), and will deny that I do if asked.
You do not have say over who is and who is not a transsexual or who can use the word. Neither do I. But I do have a say in who deserves protection, and if you choose to fight me on that, well, then hi, glad to meet you, and hope we can have a cup of coffee some day.
But know that I do support your disagreement with the people involved in the HBS movement, and that although we have different perspectives, you have my respect.
First off I see a real and clear need to create a petition in order to voice our separation from the transgender poppycock.
I sent the following to Leigh’s site:
I am one of the original founders of the HBS movement here in the states: http://harrybenjaminsyndrome.org./
and after consultation with no less a medical authority than Dr Ihenfeld, Dr. Benjamin’s associate, to whom I was assigned when a patient of Dr Benjamin it is agreed that HBS born does describe those who are true transsexuals and not the wannabee’s or the naysayers who attach those with gender disorders with those who NEEDED to correct their bodies to conform with their inborn brain gender.
I disagreed with Lisa and many others on the point of Deamons being a HBS born person and let me state here clearly why. I firmly believe that one does not grow into becoming a true HBS/transsexual. I believe it is part of our inner nature created in the womb… a biological condition and not a nurtured one. Read our site for supportive research that sustains our claim: The BSTc research, the Swiss genome studies, etc. Deamons seems to be clearly in everything s/he stated a classical transgender. I feel that to be other than a transgender and argue for inclusion as an HBS born there is limited and defining criteria.
You may or may not agree with the standard of actual HBS born but here it is:
1. Must be clearly aware of having been born the wrong sex before adolescence.
2. The condition must be supported by testimony of a family member, teacher or better still by a medical practitioner.
3. A traceable history showing the person to have HARBORED THE NEED to change genitalia so as to meld with their brain sex before puberty must be established. Otherwise the trigger could well be simply traced back to the limitations of sexual arousal… a sexual manifestation and not an inborn discordance.
If those criteria are met then they at least focus on the issue of HBS and would exclude those who grew into some HBS delusional attachment with the onset of puberty.
No, I do not believe one can grow into HBS or even transsexualism as it was originally intended to mean. If one is a cross-dresser and that becomes an overwhelming compulsion to the point of a need to expand on his or her fetishism to wit: to have surgery as a form of further mimicry, then that person is simply a transgender and in no way an HBS born since theirs is a matter of a sexual nurtured progression and not to be linked with a medical/biological inborn anomaly.
By the way I did sign the petition for I see it as valid in order that those who link to transgenderism should do so for the same reasons the transvestite Prince promoted the social construct for himself and others to follow in the first place and that had nothing to do with transsexualism or HBS born.
Attack HBS all you want but if you do so then you ascribe to the same inclusion that the transgender advocates demand of us… joining with them in THEIR community.
I am one of those who for a very long time simply functioned as the woman I am after surgery in 1972, married my husband, succeeded in running a business as the woman I am ,now a widow and retired to live continue my life as a woman and not a trans anything. I speak out only because I am fed up with those who demean what I am and what I and so many others have needed to do in order to bring their body sex into conformity with the brain sex. Is that simple enough or do I have to expand in answer to the transgender inclusionists? And no, I will never support or align with the GLBTv for my focus is no different from other women whose identity is not measured by their sexual orientation nor under the ‘T’, a linkage to gender warping.
Diane
First and foremost, I believe “The Petition” will have no effect as there are far more transGenders than those with HBS and they (The TG’s) like being attached to the GLB movement. I strongly doubt it will ever garner enough signatures nor have any effect on the so called GLBT movement.
Secondly, to address the rant about science, if you deny the science behind the HBS, then you relegate it to the wonder world of being a psychiatric condition that could just as well be treated by drugs, electro-shock, or intensive psychotherapy, none of which works. Much of the on going research is finding genetic and brain development differences which do indicate a disconnect between their brain gender and the sexual characteristics of their body. One cannot trash scientific research out of hand just because they don’t understand it.
Classic HBS generally starts from around the age of 3 or 4 when one becomes aware of their gender; not at the age of 10 or 11 when one approaches puberty and SEXUAL awareness as is the case of Karen in Cleveland.
Finally when one begins throwing terms such as “Gestapo” around regarding those who disagree with her it indicates a desire to deny anyone a dissenting opinion and THAT is like a Gestapo or totalitarian society; it essentially destroys any argument she may have had and goes further in ignoring that a large percentage of women ARE Bi-Sexual and may live with another woman in a “lesbian” relationship without that causing them to condemn those that are “heterosexual”.
The decision to judge or not is a personal one. Everyday we cast judgment on others based on their apparent actions and statements. We often go further then that and judge someone on hearsay, gossip and outright lies. This is human and if we all are honest with ourselves we would see that Miss Daemons and her situation is really secondary to the theme of this blog entry.
First Miss Daemons certainly has the option all of us have that being just to simply adapt to the situation and move on. Those of us who are successful in our lived do just that when we encounter any obstacle. Those of us who were borne less then perfect in other ways have seen there are two kinds of people who deal with disability; those who can and those who cannot. Like it or not; It really does come down to that. I am not just talking about the physical limitations many of us face; I am also talking about the psychological and emotional issues we face. I went to high school with a relatively successful blind classmate who uses to say, “shut up and adapt”, I think his message applies with anybody HBS or not who is dedicated to completing transition. The biggest bunch of babies I have ever met in my life are the transgenders lead by the snot nosed whining “activists”. When are they going to get a clue that society isn’t going to bow to their will? When are they going to get a clue that the only way to be happy and successful human beings is to fit into society as best as possible and play the game by society’s rules; I hope it happens soon because I am sick to death of their nonsense.
I signed the petition because I felt an obligation to friends who are in transition and have the same level of disgust for the transgender community and their cult like, anti-social behavior. I know I was borne HBS and how I dealt with it in my early life is my business as it is for everyone else who has known they were borne HBS. The requirements that distinguish HBS from transgender are not overwhelming they are as simple as what sets water apart from sand. The need for the transgender community to latch on to the TS identity for legitimacy proves out they have something to hide, that being their true motivation for their choice in gender expression. I don’t hold this statement as an absolute but I think it is safe to say it applies to the majority (used loosely) of those who identify as transgender. To those who have a problem with the distinction between those who are HBS and the rest of you I say “shut up and adapt”, they only thing you are doing is making yourselves look bad in the eyes of the greater society. You are tearing down your own credibility by your obsessive whining and by your unreasonable demands on the greater society. We desire to have any connection with your cult and it’s anti-social activities.
Sue
The above piece looks like the typical hatchet job, I’ve read/heard from TG hotheads over the years. As Sue mentioned, it’s like a cult mentality, or the Borg’s “you will be assimilated. resistance is futile” mentality. Why is it always the same tired old arguments, that are akin to what you ehar outr of some left-wing or right-wing plotico?:
1. “You’re being an elitist” – huh? I could care less if you want to be an “other/tranny”. That’s you’re business. But do you HAVE to insist that I belong to your group or else? Why? Certainly you know that it is in human nature to generalize people, when you lump them in groups. Under the TG mentality, “as a TG, I’m just a variation of a cross dresser, non-op, etc.” Ummmmm no, I’d like to think not. I didn’t dres up in womens clothers for a sexual rush, and unlike a non-op, I hated the genitals enough, that I seriously considered cutting them off myself. But as you already know, start pushing those who’ve had (or have) HBS into your camp, and we become less than amused. Here’s a different take on what I mean – let’s assume that somebody says that being TG is just another variation of fantasy role playing (sort of like the civil war and medevial re-enactors). You know TGisn is not, but the people who do this role playing stuff insist that you are just role players who have taken it to an extreme. AND, they very loudly insist that you have to “see it their way.” How would you feel? Pretty irate huh? Do you start to see where I’m coming from? Or do you still feel like the commies did – “comrade, you’re feelings mean nothing in the context of the state’s (in this case the so-called TG movement) desires.”
2. “HBS has only a plethora of obscure scientific papers to support it, so it isn’t legitimate.” – hey, science is science. As I learend as a part of the science I had to takw, when I went to college for my engineering degrees, any concept, it is valid UNTIL scientific analysis and review prove it to be otherwise. Good scientific review is dispassionate. It does NOT let emotion drive it (unlike certain TG activists who like left wing polticos let emotions drive their actions, to the point where the law of unintended consequences becomes a real possibility). As for the papers being obscure – hmmmm, what do you expect. HBS is an orphan disorder ( maybe 1 in 30,000 to 1 in 100,000 people actually have HBS – no I don’t buy the 1 in 5,000 or 1 in 2500 argument, otherwise we’d be much mroe visible; those numbers include TGs who say they have HBS). So like any orphan disorder, the research levels are much lower than they are for other disorders. Belive me I know first hand about this. I suffer from Cluster Headaches (which virtually every neurologist around will tell you are far more painful than migraines). These are also an orphan disorder (only about 20-30 per 100,00 people suffer from them). As a result of this, no definite theory as to what causes them has been discovered yet (they are NOT the same as migraines). There are no meds available that are specifically made to treat them, and my doctor has me make do with meds (for migraines) that don’t always work in preventing or stopping these headaches (which are so painful, I’ve wound up curled in a fetal ball from them). Like I said, orphan disorders don’t receive the attention of more common disorders. But at least there is scientific theory theory backing up HBS. What does TGism have to back it up? Just soft social science from people like Richard Doctor, and politcal manifestos from the Monica Helms, Mara Keislings, and Marti Abernathys of the world.
3. “Post op HBSers don’t understand that the TG movement helps those who are struggling in their transition rightswise. Can’t the post ops who identify with HBS see that not everybody has as easy of a transition as they had, and we’re there to help those people?” – easy transition. Yeah. Right. My transition was SO easy, I almost got fired from my job, TWICE. Throw in a major paycut due to downsizing (I literally ended up working on the factory floor), that occurred during the recession of 2000-2003, and my transition was anything but “easy.” I’m still paying off bills from my transition (which ended when I had my SAS 5 years ago), that were incurred due to maxing out credit cards, and taking out a loan with a 20 plus percent interest rate. I also tried looking for other jobs (there were none available during the recesession), and worked like a demon when worked picked up enough to allow overtime (can you say 65-70 hours/week for over 6 months straight), to pay for the surgery I had scheduled in late 2003. No, things were hard for me and most post-transitoners I know. But we stuck to it, and dealt with the hassles. There were never any “ifs”, “ands” or “buts” about getting the surgery done, so we could get on with our lives. We had no TG movement helping us out. If you have HBS, you will get the surgery done, come hell or high water. You won’t make excuses that you don’t need it, or demand special priveleges to have the surgery (unlike the fake TSs I used to know, who whined about not having the money for surgery, but made little or no effort to save money, or work extra hours to fund the surgery , but always seemed to find the time and money to go out for a night on the town).
There – ’nuff said. BTW, it’s not spelled “hypocracy”. It’s spelled hypocrisy.
Ellen
Thanks for pointing out the typo…I thought you might want to see, from your very own post that no one has a monopoly on occasionally mispelling a word. Feel free to proof read the entire blog.
You mentioned you had “engineering degrees”. I happen to have an engineering degree myself. You said (with your spelling):
Where did you get your education from. NO engineering concept is considered valid until it is proven valid. Your assertion that engineering concepts are valid until proven otherwise is absurd.
Ellen
Did you actually read the article I wrote or are you just spewing all this transgender stuff in a knee jerk reaction?
I am not a transgender dear, far from it. I suggest you look around the blog some more and you will find nothing but anti transgender articles.
pJ …
The petition, as you say, has absolutly no chance of even gaining 100 signitures let alone becoming significant. I said something to that effect in the article.
There are a number of reasons for that but that doesn’t mean its not a step worth taking. In either regard it was not my petition anyway, it was Cathryn Platines petition, and in case you don’t know she herself is an HBS woman AND a contributing editor to ts-si. It is an interesting side note that cathryn has so far not made comment on any of this.
Look, the science is all well and good but sometimes I have to wonder who all this science is supposed to impress because I can tell you it doesn’t impress me at all and I can only imagine it is more to make them feel good than it is to bring around any sort of world enlightenment.
I have no axe to grind with the HBS. I think it’s a good thing and I agree with much of what is written. What I don’t agree with is the costant insinuation that anything said against the HBS philosophy brands one a transgender and I do not agree that every transsexual is a carbon copy of every other transsexual in that they had awareness at 3 years old. Personally I cannot even remember BEING 3 years old let alone what my thoughts were at the time.
Diane,
You were one of the only ones that stated your position clearly and concisely. You did sign the petition and I applaud you for it. It wont make one scrap of diffence but it was the right thing to do nontheless.
We don’t agree on everything and you for one do not agree with everything said at ts-si and I think your stronger for that.
I dont have much to say about your post here, I believe you saw what went down on the Karen Deamon’s thing and did not as many others did, just offer a knee jerk reaction based on what other commenters said about my post. That shows that you THINK and READ and make up your own mind, and if we all did that we would all be better off.
Dysonnance
“Is what you are saying that if someone doesn’t pass they shouldn’t transition?”
No, I am saying that if someone doesn’t pass they should be aware of, and accept the consequences that it may bring, not go running off to capitol hill trying to enact laws that in effect will disengender and relegate to a third sex, those of us that do pass and live relatively normal lives.
What someone does with their own life when it doesn’t effect someone else’s life, is their own business.
Enabling people to do something they would not have been able to accomplish on their own, particularily when it will possibly have a profound effect on their quality of life to the negative, is not helping them, it is enabling them.
I see a number of the “We all live in a transgender submarine” crowd is crowing in here now.
I’m going to address one point here, others elsewhere.
HBS as a “legitimate” medical condition. It is…….period. The term is a new one coined to replace the former one “transsexual”….a recognized medical condition with a recognized treatment modality. The popular meaning of transsexuality was deliberated shifted to include those who absolutely do not fit the MEDICAL condition. HBS is a new term specific to the MEDICAL condition and so while it may not be in use currently as a MEDICAL term, it does represent a MEDICAL conditon by a new name……any attempt to claim otherwise is just another use of transvestite logic ..where penises and the desire to keep them is a badge of womanhood.
While we are on the subject, transvestite would be a much more accurate term for the non-classical transsexual individuals under the umbrella. It’s meaning is specific to those with male bodies wearing women’s clothing…..the one thing held in common by all non-classical transsexual transgenders. Transgender is a totally inappropriate term for an “umbrella” for a group containing those classical transsexed individuals because they never “trans” (cross) gender (psychological self identification of being male or female)….Henceforth I shall use transvestites to refer to all those who embrace transgender as an umbrella…..the same justification applies, they need the numbers for their “political” work……and can hardly object to the term without being elitist spurning the inclusion of a class they embrace. They ha ve and wish to keep male bodies, they wear women’s clothing……therefore they are transvestites.
Leigh,
You are telling me they should accept the consequences — they should accept it will enable them to be killed for being alive, they should accept they will be unemployed, homeless, and worse.
They should accept it because it is their fault.
That’s blaming the victim.
Catkisser,
Transvestite would be an inaccurate term, since it requires they have an *erotic* interest in doing so.
Crossdresser would be more accurate — different term, but accurately describing what you are saying.
Furthermore it is not “transgenderidentity”, which is what you are describing, it is “transgender”, which is to cross (trans) gender (social roles of masculinity and femininity).
Not all transgender people are transsexual, and not all transsexuals are transgender.
I say that *often*. This is because I have met people from whom the physical change was necessary, but the social change was not. That is, they went and had srs and a ba, for example, but they still live and identify as a man. They never followed the SoC.
Now, someone like that probably raises all your hackles, and to be frank, when I found out I freaked a bit myself.
I am a transsexual. It pisses me off when people use transgender as a replacement for transsexual. I use it according to its meaning, described above — someone who crosses gender lines.
I also use transsexual the same way: someone who crosses sex lines.
Covers the physical and the social.
Most gals I know have their own words for it. Mine is Gynesis.
If you use a scientific or medical term, especially one created by someone who is NOT one of that group of persons, you have to use its meaning as defined by them.
Not as defined by you.
Otherwise, all you get is a lot of missed communication.
dysonnance
A final word on this subject.
There are no “victims” as a result of someone doing something that they know full well has consequences.
There is only ignorance.
dysonnance, “transgender” and transsexual are mutually exclusive terms. If you trans ‘ed your gender you cannot be a transsexual because part and parcel of being transsexual is the need to correct the body to match the gender. Strange how your group never gets this. As for personal identity, I am a woman, you are a transsexual according to your own words. I suspect that makes all the difference in the world as to how we see the world.
Transvestite is not fetish specific in it’s definition and means exactly the same thing as crossdresser. The additional meanings were layered by those “trans-genders” trying to escape any connection with sexuality….see the ultra-antitranssexual Charles Prince. You might want to check out my last entry on radicalbitch.wordpress.com it explains some of this.
Leigh and catkisser,
just thought I’d let you know you are being called “HBS people” by a twit whose doing searches on me.
I know you sorta resent that, so thought I’d ask you to clarify that in a manner I can quote, if you don’t mind (that you are not HBS people in the mold you just got done castigating).
More in a second that is on topic.
Dysonnance
Hey, the hbs call me a transgender, the transgender call me hbs .. and my old man calls me a fool for getting into all this crap in the first place … LOL
So what else is new……..
Catkisser,
the reason “my group” (I have a group?) doesnt get that is becuase its incorrect.
We are not making the body match our gender, we are making the body match our “gender identity”, which is a separate concept from “gender”.
“Gender Identity” — as pretty much any current encyclopedia will inform you — is an individual’s own innate sense of their sex.
Gender is the social manifestation of roles defined as masculinity and femininity.
Those are not *my* definitions, those are the medical and scientific communities definitions (as a Dr of sociology, I can came some authority in that field).
SO they are not mutually exclusive.
By my own lights, I am transgender, transsexual, woman, and female. All at once, no one greater than the other.
We’ve been there, both of know that neither of will ever agree on much else
Actually, Prince (and I am so sad you disrespected the homophobic twit) came up with transgenderist (not transgender, that was someone else) as a way of expressing cross dressers who live full time but recognized they were still male.
I do not, obviously.
Scientifically, it is specific — and was so assigned by Harry Benjamin (and you have got to remember the 6 point scale, don’t you?)
I will check out your blog, too — thank you
dysonnance…
I have made my position clear with regards to HBS numerous times…there is no need, for me at least, to repeat it.
I am aware of the one whose intent it is to stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. I have no problem with someone, anyone, offering an opinion here, even if I completely and totally disagree with it…certainly you are welcome to continue posting. But I just have no patience whatsoever with someone who comes here with no other intention than to blatantly insult someone and cause discourse. I am not referring to you, but to the person of whom you are referring to a couple of posts above.
Twice that person has posted here, and twice I have completely deleted their post. The second time I deleted their post I indicated to the person that they were not welcome here…if you look around a bit, you can find the post. One of the posts, by the way, was a slam on you. Though I am in agreement with you on almost nothing you have said, to mention it again, anyone who wants to come here just to upset the applecart and insult you, me, Leigh or any other person for absolutely no reason other than to spread venom is not going to make it.
dysonnance…..I use “gender” in the context of sense of one’s self as male and female, as you are aware.
You are NOT the only “expert” out there and we are now all quite aware of your sociology background…..guess what? Me too. Majored in sociology with minors in psychology and anthropology myself and have counted some of the best minds in the world in the fields of psychology and psychiatry as close personal friends for many many years so, at least with me, give it a rest.ok?
The terms ARE mutually exclusive. FWIW my definition of transsexual was once the top search engine result for the term for several years so I guess I’m an “expert” too.
I have had to deal with the HBS crowd at forums. That call them TG Forums, but then claim they are either Intersex or woman with a birth defect. Playing the victim card to get sympathy from the audience.
Being Intersex myself, I was offended by the hateful speech towards me when I told them they should see a doctor to make sure. Especially due to the health issues I have.
As for scientific. Their website references itself as proof. With some research, it was found the creator of the web site is not out and works with the Catholic Church. Sometimes known to put out mis-information to divide a community.
Who are you talking about?
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